[ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
15 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Guillaume Laforge-2
Hi all,

We had already a Groovy page on Google+, where you could hear about news related to Groovy and its ecosystem:

But with Google+ releasing a new "community" feature, I've created a "Groovy developers" community:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105160926044623621768

So if you're interested in exchanging news, tips, starting discussions, and more, and if you're on Google+, don't hesitate to come and join the "Groovy developers" community!

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
SpringSource, a division of VMware


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Gavin Grover
>________________________________
> From: Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]>
>
>Hi all,
>
>We had already a Groovy page on Google+, where you could hear about news related to Groovy and its ecosystem:
>https://plus.google.com/+groovy/posts
>
>But with Google+ releasing a new "community" feature, I've created a "Groovy developers" community:
>https://plus.google.com/u/0/communities/105160926044623621768
>

Moving any discussions from this mailing list to a Google-hosted forum will only alienate Groovy programmers who can't access it easily, e.g. programmers behind the Chinese Firewall.

Moving ahead with a Groovy spec and testkit would be of far greater benefit to the Groovy ecosystem than yet another "community forum", because a serious commitment to creating a spec (instead of the stonewalling over the last 8 years) could cause different implementations of Groovy to flower. Instead Groovy has been out of the Tiobe top 50 for most of the last 2 years, and seems to have no life left outside of Grails/Gradle.

Gavin Grover


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

graham
I'm also not in favour of using Google for the purpose.

I did try to create a Google account a few months ago and it simply wouldn't let me (an error with lots of references on the web but no solution so it seems) so I really cannot be bothered to try again.

And then, if one follows UK commentators on tax affairs one may feel one doesn't wants to use Google at all...

graham
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Guillaume Laforge-2
We're definitely not moving away from our usual mailing-lists to a Google based solution.
The Groovy community on Google+ is just an additional communication, where people can discuss, exchange ideas, talk about what they've done with Groovy, tell the world about their upcoming Groovy-related events, etc.
It's not replacing the mailing-lists for user support, or developer discussions.
It's a complement, an additional communication medium.

Guillaume


On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM, graham <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm also not in favour of using Google for the purpose.

I did try to create a Google account a few months ago and it simply wouldn't
let me (an error with lots of references on the web but no solution so it
seems) so I really cannot be bothered to try again.

And then, if one follows UK commentators on tax affairs one may feel one
doesn't wants to use Google at all...

graham




--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
SpringSource, a division of VMware


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

longwa
Somewhat off topic, but the Tiobe Top 50 feels like a useless index to me and doesn't jive with my own personal experiences in recruiting and hiring. For instance, if you look at the languages in the top 20, only about 8 of the 20 are relevant. Furthermore, many of the languages are only relevant in a very specific space (Objective-C for example). I've never, ever, seen anyone looking for jobs or coming in with skills in Lua, Ada, or Object Pascal yet they are in the top 20.

On the flip side, out of the companies in which I have contacts, nearly all of them are using Groovy in some capacity (either via Grails projects or as a side car to existing Java applications, often for testing). Several are also using Scala which also isn't in the top 50.




On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 8:33 AM, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
We're definitely not moving away from our usual mailing-lists to a Google based solution.
The Groovy community on Google+ is just an additional communication, where people can discuss, exchange ideas, talk about what they've done with Groovy, tell the world about their upcoming Groovy-related events, etc.
It's not replacing the mailing-lists for user support, or developer discussions.
It's a complement, an additional communication medium.

Guillaume


On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 1:46 PM, graham <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm also not in favour of using Google for the purpose.

I did try to create a Google account a few months ago and it simply wouldn't
let me (an error with lots of references on the web but no solution so it
seems) so I really cannot be bothered to try again.

And then, if one follows UK commentators on tax affairs one may feel one
doesn't wants to use Google at all...

graham




--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
SpringSource, a division of VMware



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Russel Winder-3
In reply to this post by Gavin Grover
On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 15:24 -0800, Gavin Grover wrote:
[…]
> Moving any discussions from this mailing list to a Google-hosted forum
> will only alienate Groovy programmers who can't access it easily, e.g.
> programmers behind the Chinese Firewall.

Or even anyone who actually likes to receive all messages as emails in
their email account.  This is why the Gradle situation sucks and the
Groovy situation is fine.

> Moving ahead with a Groovy spec and testkit would be of far greater
> benefit to the Groovy ecosystem than yet another "community forum",
> because a serious commitment to creating a spec (instead of the
> stonewalling over the last 8 years) could cause different
> implementations of Groovy to flower. Instead Groovy has been out of
> the Tiobe top 50 for most of the last 2 years, and seems to have no
> life left outside of Grails/Gradle.

It would be nice to have progress on a spec and a TCK, but "stonewalling
over the last 8 years" is just rank FUD.  TIOBE is an index about people
who don't know what they are doing, querying Google to find something;
it is a measure of incompetence more than language use.

Given the knowledge of Groovy and Grails amongst attenders of the Java
courses I give, Groovy is in a fine, vibrant position and increasingly
taken up whereas Grails is in a holding pattern of no increase in
penetration of the market.  Your comment "Groovy…no life left outside of
Grails/Gradle" is FUD with no solid data to back it up. I know I only
have anecdotal evidence, but I can give dates and times of Java EE and
Sping/Hibernate folks hassling me to know about Groovy where none have
even heard of Grails.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:[hidden email]
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: [hidden email]
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

signature.asc (205 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Russel Winder-3
In reply to this post by longwa
On Sat, 2012-12-08 at 13:10 -0500, Aaron Long wrote:
> Somewhat off topic, but the Tiobe Top 50 feels like a useless index to me
> and doesn't jive with my own personal experiences in recruiting and hiring.
> For instance, if you look at the languages in the top 20, only about 8 of
> the 20 are relevant. Furthermore, many of the languages are only relevant
> in a very specific space (Objective-C for example). I've never, ever, seen
> anyone looking for jobs or coming in with skills in Lua, Ada, or Object
> Pascal yet they are in the top 20.

The TIOBE index is biased towards languages being taught to
undergraduates in universities. It is an interesting statistic, but does
not measure language use for commercial projects in the world.

Lua is used a lot as a dynamic partner for C and C++ in image processing
software. As is Python.

Ada remain the principle language for many projects involving software
that has the risk of killing people. C just doesn't cut it in these
contexts. Nor indeed C++, D, etc.

Object-Pascal uis just an aberration. ;-)

> On the flip side, out of the companies in which I have contacts, nearly all
> of them are using Groovy in some capacity (either via Grails projects or as
> a side car to existing Java applications, often for testing). Several are
> also using Scala which also isn't in the top 50.

The latter of these Groovy use cases is what I am getting wind of as I
visit various companies.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:[hidden email]
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: [hidden email]
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

signature.asc (205 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Gavin Grover
In reply to this post by longwa
>________________________________
> From: Aaron Long <[hidden email]>
>
>Somewhat off topic, but the Tiobe Top 50 feels like a useless index to me and doesn't jive with my own personal experiences in recruiting and hiring. For instance, if you look at the languages in the top 20, only about 8 of the 20 are relevant. Furthermore, many of the languages are only relevant in a very specific space (Objective-C for example). I've never, ever, seen anyone looking for jobs or coming in with skills in Lua, Ada, or Object Pascal yet they are in the top 20.
>
>On the flip side, out of the companies in which I have contacts, nearly all of them are using Groovy in some capacity (either via Grails projects or as a side car to existing Java applications, often for testing). Several are also using Scala which also isn't in the top 50.
>

Tiobe's skewed somewhat by various biases. Its values are probably roughly accurate only for languages in the top 10, but when a language isn't in the top 50, it also says something about the language. One very hard to game indicator is O'Reilly's hard-copy book sales, which has Groovy at a very low rating:

http://radar.oreilly.com/2012/04/computer-book-market-2011-part4.html

Groovy's popularity seems to still depend on that of Grails, with perhaps Gradle contributing a little too. Perhaps book sales and other indicators show Grails in a better light than standalone Groovy use.

And to correct you, Scala's been in Tiobe's top 50 for a while, and its hard-copy book sales are increasing.

Gavin Grover

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

longwa
Fair enough. I'm just saying that from my personal experience a lot of
companies are moving toward Groovy and I expect to see the popularity
increase over the next few years. Also, I don't think it's a negative
that the language is strongly driven by grails. The same could be said
for Ruby and Rails. Groovy is a great language and it bridges a gap
between one of the most popular, though aging, languages and some of
the newer languages. It's not a golden hammer, but in the enterprise
Java space I think it has a future.

Also, for book sales I think Groovy has an unfair hurdle. Many of the
groovy adopters are old Java guys like me and find the switch quite
natural. I own several ruby books and several java books but not a
single Groovy book. The syntax I know and concepts like closures I can
infer from other languages like Ruby.

-Aaron


On Dec 8, 2012, at 6:05 PM, Gavin Grover <[hidden email]> wrote:

>> ________________________________
>> From: Aaron Long <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Somewhat off topic, but the Tiobe Top 50 feels like a useless index to me and doesn't jive with my own personal experiences in recruiting and hiring. For instance, if you look at the languages in the top 20, only about 8 of the 20 are relevant. Furthermore, many of the languages are only relevant in a very specific space (Objective-C for example). I've never, ever, seen anyone looking for jobs or coming in with skills in Lua, Ada, or Object Pascal yet they are in the top 20.
>>
>> On the flip side, out of the companies in which I have contacts, nearly all of them are using Groovy in some capacity (either via Grails projects or as a side car to existing Java applications, often for testing). Several are also using Scala which also isn't in the top 50.
>>
>
> Tiobe's skewed somewhat by various biases. Its values are probably roughly accurate only for languages in the top 10, but when a language isn't in the top 50, it also says something about the language. One very hard to game indicator is O'Reilly's hard-copy book sales, which has Groovy at a very low rating:
>
> http://radar.oreilly.com/2012/04/computer-book-market-2011-part4.html
>
> Groovy's popularity seems to still depend on that of Grails, with perhaps Gradle contributing a little too. Perhaps book sales and other indicators show Grails in a better light than standalone Groovy use.
>
> And to correct you, Scala's been in Tiobe's top 50 for a while, and its hard-copy book sales are increasing.
>
> Gavin Grover
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Graeme Rocher
Administrator
In reply to this post by Russel Winder-3
We all know Groovy is used extensively outside of Grails and that Groovy is doing fine, growing in usage and interest and progressing well.

Grails, Gradle (and now Vert.x) are however significant vectors for Groovy adoption and deny that is crazy. Also, Russel I don't know what anecdotal evidence you are basing your statement that Grails is not growing / is in a holding pattern, but your statements contain equal amounts of FUD.

Certainly the statement that Groovy has no life outside Grails/Gradle is FUD, but there is no need to disparage the significance of Grails in the Groovy community.

At 2GX in the USA we had 300 Groovy/Grails attendees to the conference (up from 200 the previous year), a significant number of those interested in Grails. At Grails Exchange in London right now there are 140 attendees (up from 100 last year) and with the conference split into a Groovy and a Grails track the vast majority of those are attending the Grails track.

Grails' community (external contributions, plugins, interest etc.) continue to grow. Grails, Play and Spring MVC are the top frameworks on the JVM right now (as demonstrated by the surveys like http://www.infoq.com/research/jvm-web-frameworks)

Both the Groovy and the Grails communities are healthy and growing. There is no need to make statements saying one (Grails) is stagnant to justify the health of the other (Groovy). Let's all work together to make the communities bigger and better.

Cheers

On Sat, Dec 8, 2012 at 8:47 PM, Russel Winder <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 2012-12-07 at 15:24 -0800, Gavin Grover wrote:
[…]
> Moving any discussions from this mailing list to a Google-hosted forum
> will only alienate Groovy programmers who can't access it easily, e.g.
> programmers behind the Chinese Firewall.

Or even anyone who actually likes to receive all messages as emails in
their email account.  This is why the Gradle situation sucks and the
Groovy situation is fine.

> Moving ahead with a Groovy spec and testkit would be of far greater
> benefit to the Groovy ecosystem than yet another "community forum",
> because a serious commitment to creating a spec (instead of the
> stonewalling over the last 8 years) could cause different
> implementations of Groovy to flower. Instead Groovy has been out of
> the Tiobe top 50 for most of the last 2 years, and seems to have no
> life left outside of Grails/Gradle.

It would be nice to have progress on a spec and a TCK, but "stonewalling
over the last 8 years" is just rank FUD.  TIOBE is an index about people
who don't know what they are doing, querying Google to find something;
it is a measure of incompetence more than language use.

Given the knowledge of Groovy and Grails amongst attenders of the Java
courses I give, Groovy is in a fine, vibrant position and increasingly
taken up whereas Grails is in a holding pattern of no increase in
penetration of the market.  Your comment "Groovy…no life left outside of
Grails/Gradle" is FUD with no solid data to back it up. I know I only
have anecdotal evidence, but I can give dates and times of Java EE and
Sping/Hibernate folks hassling me to know about Groovy where none have
even heard of Grails.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: <a href="tel:%2B44%2020%207585%202200" value="+442075852200">+44 20 7585 2200   voip: [hidden email]
41 Buckmaster Road    m: <a href="tel:%2B44%207770%20465%20077" value="+447770465077">+44 7770 465 077   xmpp: [hidden email]
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder



--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
SpringSource - A Division of VMware
http://www.springsource.com
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Russel Winder-3
On Thu, 2012-12-13 at 14:01 +0000, Graeme Rocher wrote:
> We all know Groovy is used extensively outside of Grails and that Groovy is
> doing fine, growing in usage and interest and progressing well.
>
> Grails, Gradle (and now Vert.x) are however significant vectors for Groovy
> adoption and deny that is crazy. Also, Russel I don't know what anecdotal
> evidence you are basing your statement that Grails is not growing / is in a
> holding pattern, but your statements contain equal amounts of FUD.

I was trying to say that in my experience the Java people I deal with
are getting interested in Groovy but were not asking about Grails. If I
gave any other impression that was just poor writing on my part, for
which I apologize.

> Certainly the statement that Groovy has no life outside Grails/Gradle is
> FUD, but there is no need to disparage the significance of Grails in the
> Groovy community.
[…]

That was not my intention, but I clearly wrote in far to much haste to
make the point I was trying to make in an appropriate way. Again
apologies if I appeared to disparage Grails in any way.

I think as we can see from Groovy and Grails eXchange 2013, the Grails
community appears larger than the Groovy community, but both are
vibrant, active and great to be involved with.

--
Russel.
=============================================================================
Dr Russel Winder      t: +44 20 7585 2200   voip: sip:[hidden email]
41 Buckmaster Road    m: +44 7770 465 077   xmpp: [hidden email]
London SW11 1EN, UK   w: www.russel.org.uk  skype: russel_winder

signature.asc (205 bytes) Download Attachment
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Gavin Grover
In reply to this post by Graeme Rocher
>________________________________
> From: Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]>
[...]
>At 2GX in the USA we had 300 Groovy/Grails attendees to the conference (up from 200 the previous year), a significant number of those interested in Grails. At Grails Exchange in London right now there are 140 attendees (up from 100 last year) and with the conference split into a Groovy and a Grails track the vast majority of those are attending the Grails track.
>


Quoting the number of people at a conference, or even the increase over the previous year, doesn't mean much. It only shows how good the organizers are at getting conference attendees from existing Grails users, not the uptake of Grails in general. Perhaps there were heavy discounts, or more spent on marketing, or perhaps more Grails programmers can get to Washington than to Chicago.


But my point was that most Groovy use seems to be within the context of Grails, perhaps with a little Gradle, and very little standalone Groovy use compared to other choices.

Gavin Grover


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Sebastien Blanc



On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Gavin Grover <[hidden email]> wrote:
>________________________________
> From: Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]>
[...]
>At 2GX in the USA we had 300 Groovy/Grails attendees to the conference (up from 200 the previous year), a significant number of those interested in Grails. At Grails Exchange in London right now there are 140 attendees (up from 100 last year) and with the conference split into a Groovy and a Grails track the vast majority of those are attending the Grails track.
>


Quoting the number of people at a conference, or even the increase over the previous year, doesn't mean much. It only shows how good the organizers are at getting conference attendees from existing Grails users, not the uptake of Grails in general. Perhaps there were heavy discounts, or more spent on marketing, or perhaps more Grails programmers can get to Washington than to Chicago.


But my point was that most Groovy use seems to be within the context of Grails, perhaps with a little Gradle, and very little standalone Groovy use compared to other choices.
That is not true.

Gavin Grover


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

houbie
In reply to this post by Gavin Grover

> But my point was that most Groovy use seems to be within the context of Grails, perhaps with a little Gradle, and very little standalone Groovy use compared to other choices.

You might be underestimating the usage of Groovy for testing: I know some rather conservative shops where Groovy is not allowed for production code, but where it use is for testing (typically Geb and Spock)

Grtz,
Ivo
---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [groovy-user] [ANN] A Groovy developers community on Google+

Guillaume Laforge
In reply to this post by Sebastien Blanc
On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 11:21 AM, Sebastien Blanc <[hidden email]> wrote:
[...]

But my point was that most Groovy use seems to be within the context of Grails, perhaps with a little Gradle, and very little standalone Groovy use compared to other choices. 
That is not true.

Indeed a claim backed by no fact whatsoever. 

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
Head of Groovy Development at SpringSource
http://www.springsource.com/g2one