G2One needs your advice

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G2One needs your advice

Guillaume Laforge-2
Hi dear Groovy and Grails users,


As you certainly already know by now, we launched G2One, a commercial
entity sustaining the development of Groovy and Grails.

Through G2One, we are providing professional services and commercial
products around both technologies.


G2One would love to hear your feedback and advice on what you, as a
user, as a project manager, as a developer, as an architect, as a
company, you would expect from us.


- Support

What kind of support packages would you like us to provide?
Different levels of support? Different means of communication (phone / email)?
Packages including possibly some potential products, connectors,
management consoles?

- Training

What kind of training would you like to follow if your company was to
provide you with such trainings?
How long should it last ideally (two to five days)?
What topics should be covered (introduction to Groovy and/or Grails,
specific topics like DSLs in Groovy, advanced GORM, etc)
Would you also prefer on site training, or public seminars, or both?

- Consulting

What would you need in terms of consulting?
Architecture advice, feasibility studies, coaching/mentoring, project
management, full-blown application development, even inshore/offshore,
dedicated development of connectors?

- Products

This is obviously not about the development of Groovy and Grails
themselves, since they are Open Source projects (and will obviously
remain so), so I'm not talking here about the usual feature requests
you may have in mind :-)

It's about the kind of additional / side products you would be
interested in having in order to better integrate Groovy and Grails in
your IT infrastructure, for instance some management consoles with
dedicated Groovy JMX beans, some specific Grails connectors for
commercial products like ESBs, ERPs like SAP, CMS / Portal tools like
Documentum, search engines like Autonomy's line of products, etc.


I'm impatient to hear about your thoughts on what you would like G2One
to provide you in terms of professional services and products.
Feel free to answer me in private if you're not at ease with sharing
your wishes in public, or directly here by brainstorming on the lists!
G2One is there for you :-)


Thanks in advance for your feedback.


--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
http://www.g2one.com

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Steve Tekell
ok, I'll throw a few thoughts out there if no one else will

On Training
- I'd like the option for on site training.  I'd like to see course outlines developed for multiple courses from which we can either take as is or add/remove modules for a custom course.  These should be  "boot camp" (highly intensive) and "no fluff, just stuff".  I should learn much more in a week in the course than I would have on my own.  I should come away with some decent reference material and the source code of working examples of non-trivial examples.

On Support
- There's many acceptable models out there.  Although I do find it a little odd that some don't offer phone support at any pricing level.

On Products
- I'd love to see a few things.  Gricket and Grone are two ideas I've had and that I would contribute to (after I get more up to speed).  

1) Gricket: Groovy/Grails + Wicket(1.3+) - fully integrated.
I'd like to see 0.1 Wicket plugin evolve into a first class UI option for Grails development.  This would include the components (and builders) necessary for dynamic scaffolding with full GORM integration for relationships and validators.  Also, it should utilize Wicket 1.3's class reloading, not available with the 0.1 plugin (and Wicket 1.2).  GORM is great, but Grails current web-UI technology (MVC with tag based programming) is not.  Wicket is strong where Grails is weak, but by itself Wicket lacks the early stage productivity of Grails.

2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).
I guess this is beyond the scope of what you asking for, but I am frustrated with the state of CMSes for Java.  PHP has some great Web-CMSes like Drupal.  Python/Zope has Plone - which is a great hybrid Web-CMS with documenent management features like workflows and rules engine.  Java has nothing that really compares well with Plone or Drupal - easy to use and powerful Web-CMS for building community web sites.  BTW I have been using Alfresco for awhile and well, it's not this kind of CMS.  I have also used portal servers like Liferay and JBoss portal.  And while you can combine these with Alfresco to get a comparable set of bullet points on your feature list, it's a complicated, disintegrated, unusable mess, and a nightmare to maintain and extend.  I thought if someone would bring Rails to the Java world via Groovy, they might be interested in doing the same with Plone (or Drupal).

3) general integration/scripting comment
I'd love to be able to use Groovy where I can use Python/JavaScript for working with applications that offer some scripting API.  Some I use offer Python scripting and some JavaScript.  If I were G2One, I'd probably try to get the ball rolling by working some high profile applications.  I think Alfresco is considering adding it as another scripting option.

On Documentation
- BTW Groovy and Grails need much better documentation.  I am hoping the existence of G2One, will ensure the resources for professional documentation for Groovy and Grails, similar to i21 and Spring.





glaforge wrote
Hi dear Groovy and Grails users,


As you certainly already know by now, we launched G2One, a commercial
entity sustaining the development of Groovy and Grails.

Through G2One, we are providing professional services and commercial
products around both technologies.


G2One would love to hear your feedback and advice on what you, as a
user, as a project manager, as a developer, as an architect, as a
company, you would expect from us.


- Support

What kind of support packages would you like us to provide?
Different levels of support? Different means of communication (phone / email)?
Packages including possibly some potential products, connectors,
management consoles?

- Training

What kind of training would you like to follow if your company was to
provide you with such trainings?
How long should it last ideally (two to five days)?
What topics should be covered (introduction to Groovy and/or Grails,
specific topics like DSLs in Groovy, advanced GORM, etc)
Would you also prefer on site training, or public seminars, or both?

- Consulting

What would you need in terms of consulting?
Architecture advice, feasibility studies, coaching/mentoring, project
management, full-blown application development, even inshore/offshore,
dedicated development of connectors?

- Products

This is obviously not about the development of Groovy and Grails
themselves, since they are Open Source projects (and will obviously
remain so), so I'm not talking here about the usual feature requests
you may have in mind :-)

It's about the kind of additional / side products you would be
interested in having in order to better integrate Groovy and Grails in
your IT infrastructure, for instance some management consoles with
dedicated Groovy JMX beans, some specific Grails connectors for
commercial products like ESBs, ERPs like SAP, CMS / Portal tools like
Documentum, search engines like Autonomy's line of products, etc.


I'm impatient to hear about your thoughts on what you would like G2One
to provide you in terms of professional services and products.
Feel free to answer me in private if you're not at ease with sharing
your wishes in public, or directly here by brainstorming on the lists!
G2One is there for you :-)


Thanks in advance for your feedback.


--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
http://www.g2one.com

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Re: G2One needs your advice

justinedelson
+1 to Grone/Grupal

On 11/1/07, Steve Tekell <[hidden email]> wrote:

ok, I'll throw a few thoughts out there if no one else will

On Training
- I'd like the option for on site training.  I'd like to see course outlines
developed for multiple courses from which we can either take as is or
add/remove modules for a custom course.  These should be  "boot camp"
(highly intensive) and "no fluff, just stuff".  I should learn much more in
a week in the course than I would have on my own.  I should come away with
some decent reference material and the source code of working examples of
non-trivial examples.

On Support
- There's many acceptable models out there.  Although I do find it a little
odd that some don't offer phone support at any pricing level.

On Products
- I'd love to see a few things.  Gricket and Grone are two ideas I've had
and that I would contribute to (after I get more up to speed).

1) Gricket: Groovy/Grails + Wicket(1.3+) - fully integrated.
I'd like to see 0.1 Wicket plugin evolve into a first class UI option for
Grails development.  This would include the components (and builders)
necessary for dynamic scaffolding with full GORM integration for
relationships and validators.  Also, it should utilize Wicket 1.3's class
reloading, not available with the 0.1 plugin (and Wicket 1.2).  GORM is
great, but Grails current web-UI technology (MVC with tag based programming)
is not.  Wicket is strong where Grails is weak, but by itself Wicket lacks
the early stage productivity of Grails.

2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).
I guess this is beyond the scope of what you asking for, but I am frustrated
with the state of CMSes for Java.  PHP has some great Web-CMSes like Drupal.
Python/Zope has Plone - which is a great hybrid Web-CMS with documenent
management features like workflows and rules engine.  Java has nothing that
really compares well with Plone or Drupal - easy to use and powerful Web-CMS
for building community web sites.  BTW I have been using Alfresco for awhile
and well, it's not this kind of CMS.  I have also used portal servers like
Liferay and JBoss portal.  And while you can combine these with Alfresco to
get a comparable set of bullet points on your feature list, it's a
complicated, disintegrated, unusable mess, and a nightmare to maintain and
extend.  I thought if someone would bring Rails to the Java world via
Groovy, they might be interested in doing the same with Plone (or Drupal).

3) general integration/scripting comment
I'd love to be able to use Groovy where I can use Python/JavaScript for
working with applications that offer some scripting API.  Some I use offer
Python scripting and some JavaScript.  If I were G2One, I'd probably try to
get the ball rolling by working some high profile applications.  I think
Alfresco is considering adding it as another scripting option.

On Documentation
- BTW Groovy and Grails need much better documentation.  I am hoping the
existence of G2One, will ensure the resources for professional documentation
for Groovy and Grails, similar to i21 and Spring.






glaforge wrote:

>
> Hi dear Groovy and Grails users,
>
>
> As you certainly already know by now, we launched G2One, a commercial
> entity sustaining the development of Groovy and Grails.
>
> Through G2One, we are providing professional services and commercial
> products around both technologies.
>
>
> G2One would love to hear your feedback and advice on what you, as a
> user, as a project manager, as a developer, as an architect, as a
> company, you would expect from us.
>
>
> - Support
>
> What kind of support packages would you like us to provide?
> Different levels of support? Different means of communication (phone /
> email)?
> Packages including possibly some potential products, connectors,
> management consoles?
>
> - Training
>
> What kind of training would you like to follow if your company was to
> provide you with such trainings?
> How long should it last ideally (two to five days)?
> What topics should be covered (introduction to Groovy and/or Grails,
> specific topics like DSLs in Groovy, advanced GORM, etc)
> Would you also prefer on site training, or public seminars, or both?
>
> - Consulting
>
> What would you need in terms of consulting?
> Architecture advice, feasibility studies, coaching/mentoring, project
> management, full-blown application development, even inshore/offshore,
> dedicated development of connectors?
>
> - Products
>
> This is obviously not about the development of Groovy and Grails
> themselves, since they are Open Source projects (and will obviously
> remain so), so I'm not talking here about the usual feature requests
> you may have in mind :-)
>
> It's about the kind of additional / side products you would be
> interested in having in order to better integrate Groovy and Grails in
> your IT infrastructure, for instance some management consoles with
> dedicated Groovy JMX beans, some specific Grails connectors for
> commercial products like ESBs, ERPs like SAP, CMS / Portal tools like
> Documentum, search engines like Autonomy's line of products, etc.
>
>
> I'm impatient to hear about your thoughts on what you would like G2One
> to provide you in terms of professional services and products.
> Feel free to answer me in private if you're not at ease with sharing
> your wishes in public, or directly here by brainstorming on the lists!
> G2One is there for you :-)
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
> http://www.g2one.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/G2One-needs-your-advice-tf4671536.html#a13534521
Sent from the grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


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Re: G2One needs your advice

hamishagain@dcs.shef.ac.uk

>     2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).

small, new and a bit odd, but have a look at gatewiki.sf.net (grails-based
cms/wiki that's looking for new developers!)

best
--
Hamish
http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/~hamish/

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Re: G2One needs your advice

ejmundorf
+1 to documentation.

On 11/2/07, Hamish Cunningham <[hidden email]> wrote:

>     2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).

small, new and a bit odd, but have a look at gatewiki.sf.net (grails-based
cms/wiki that's looking for new developers!)

best
--
Hamish
http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/~hamish/

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Steve Tekell
In reply to this post by hamishagain@dcs.shef.ac.uk
I don't mean this as a criticism of CoW, but just to clarify that's not what I mean by Grone (or Grupal), nor do I think a SVN based wiki would form a good basis for what I am talking about.  The term CMS is too overloaded to be of use by itself, that's why I specifically mention Plone (and Drupal).

There's plenty of wikis and light CMSes.  There's JspWiki and XWiki, just to name a couple, and XWiki even supports Groovy scripting.  There's also many, many Java based CMSes along these lines - something that helps you build a basic web site but not a community.  I've evaluated dozens of Java based CMSes and none compare with Plone.

To oversimplify, let say CMSs fall into a spectrum
Wikis ------ The Happy Mean -------- ECM
On the one side, Wikis are easy to use, but can't do much.  Trying to add forums, blogs, calendars, workflows, etc to a wiki, doesn't work well.  On the far other end is Enterprise Content Management, which may have a lot of features including sophisticated document management where they have evolved from, are very difficult to use and are far from an instant community web site.  What's missing in Java/Groovy is the happy middle.  Plone, Drupal, and others offer an instant community web site that is easy to use and has news, calendars, forums, blogs, etc.  Plone has some ECM-like document management that Drupal doesn't with it's workflows, new rules engine.  But even Drupal's basic publishing logic is beyond a wiki.


hcunningham wrote
>     2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).

small, new and a bit odd, but have a look at gatewiki.sf.net (grails-based
cms/wiki that's looking for new developers!)

best
--
Hamish
http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/~hamish/

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Re: G2One needs your advice

iamsteveholmes
Hi Steve!
One thing we have been looking into at my company would be a CMS plugin to Grails.  We use plone as a CMS and other frameworks for Web Application development.  The problem as I see it is that there is not good integration between the two.  Basically you either have something like Plone that is an outstanding Web CMS or something like grails that is great at building Web applications.  Integrating a CMS with a web application is unnecessarily complicated and makes for a painful development experience, the opposite of what grails is about.  It would be great to be able to build a web application using grails and have a simple plugin to manage content.

Plone utilizes Zope which implements the Dublin Core "Meta-Data system".  What if we were to implement a Meta-Data/Content Management System, possibly the Dublin Core,  that is a plugin to Grails....So that you could build your web application using grails, and manage all the content with this plugin.  Anyone out there excited by this possibility?
Just my 2 cents.
-Steve  


Steve Tekell wrote
I don't mean this as a criticism of CoW, but just to clarify that's not what I mean by Grone (or Grupal), nor do I think a SVN based wiki would form a good basis for what I am talking about.  The term CMS is too overloaded to be of use by itself, that's why I specifically mention Plone (and Drupal).

There's plenty of wikis and light CMSes.  There's JspWiki and XWiki, just to name a couple, and XWiki even supports Groovy scripting.  There's also many, many Java based CMSes along these lines - something that helps you build a basic web site but not a community.  I've evaluated dozens of Java based CMSes and none compare with Plone.

To oversimplify, let say CMSs fall into a spectrum
Wikis ------ The Happy Mean -------- ECM
On the one side, Wikis are easy to use, but can't do much.  Trying to add forums, blogs, calendars, workflows, etc to a wiki, doesn't work well.  On the far other end is Enterprise Content Management, which may have a lot of features including sophisticated document management where they have evolved from, are very difficult to use and are far from an instant community web site.  What's missing in Java/Groovy is the happy middle.  Plone, Drupal, and others offer an instant community web site that is easy to use and has news, calendars, forums, blogs, etc.  Plone has some ECM-like document management that Drupal doesn't with it's workflows, new rules engine.  But even Drupal's basic publishing logic is beyond a wiki.


hcunningham wrote
>     2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).

small, new and a bit odd, but have a look at gatewiki.sf.net (grails-based
cms/wiki that's looking for new developers!)

best
--
Hamish
http://www.dcs.shef.ac.uk/~hamish/

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Marc Palmer Local

On 2 Nov 2007, at 18:19, Steve Holmes wrote:

>
> Hi Steve!
> One thing we have been looking into at my company would be a CMS  
> plugin to
> Grails.  We use plone as a CMS and other frameworks for Web  
> Application
> development.  The problem as I see it is that there is not good  
> integration
> between the two.  Basically you either have something like Plone  
> that is an
> outstanding Web CMS or something like grails that is great at  
> building Web
> applications.  Integrating a CMS with a web application is  
> unnecessarily
> complicated and makes for a painful development experience, the  
> opposite of
> what grails is about.  It would be great to be able to build a web
> application using grails and have a simple plugin to manage content.
>
> Plone utilizes Zope which implements the Dublin Core "Meta-Data  
> system".
> What if we were to implement a Meta-Data/Content Management System,  
> possibly
> the Dublin Core,  that is a plugin to Grails....So that you could  
> build your
> web application using grails, and manage all the content with this  
> plugin.
> Anyone out there excited by this possibility?
> Just my 2 cents.

IMO we need a Grails JCR plugin that can back onto any JCR impl. We  
already have the makings of this in SVN courtesy of Graeme.

Then we just need a CMS plugin that uses this JCR plugin as its  
backing store.

Really though, a CMS is just a gluing together of authentication,  
authorisation content repository, and WYSIWYG JS editors. Lay the  
groundwork with sound plugins for these and then the CMS is a doddle.

JCR is partly done, in SVN
Authentic/Authoris-ation done in a few plugins, more to come (at least  
1 from me)
FCKEditor plugin is already developed

So it looks like all we need is a little bit of glue.

Marc


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Re: G2One needs your advice

Dave Griffith-2
In reply to this post by Guillaume Laforge-2

Scripts, tools, and prebuilt images for deploying Grails applications to Amazon's EC2 compute-cloud service. Not rocket surgery, but imagine the demo possibilities of being able to type something like "grails DeployAmazonEC2 20" and have it automatically provision/install/configure/launch your application on 20 virtual rent-a-Fedora-boxes (total cost: $2 per hour).   It's a beautiful fit for the "like Rails, but enterprise-class" story.

(Caveat: I'm sadly unlikely to actually be a customer for G2One for a good long while, so take the above as basically comment-thread wouldn't-it-be-cool lip flapping).
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Re: G2One needs your advice

iamsteveholmes
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
I'm thinking we need something a little more "Meta-Data-y".  As I understand, JCR it is a standard for how to interact with a repository.  I don't believe it gives you a lot of Meta-Data about what is stored in the repository, so you would need to build all that in objects.  A good CMS would have a content storage repository, and JMS makes perfect sense for that, plus Meta-Data tied to all content that could represent relations, etc.  It would be great to query the CMS asking for all NewsItems Relevant to this City, or News Items that the User might find interesting based on stated interests, location, etc.  I'm looking for much more intelligent content.

Marc Palmer Local wrote
On 2 Nov 2007, at 18:19, Steve Holmes wrote:

>
> Hi Steve!
> One thing we have been looking into at my company would be a CMS  
> plugin to
> Grails.  We use plone as a CMS and other frameworks for Web  
> Application
> development.  The problem as I see it is that there is not good  
> integration
> between the two.  Basically you either have something like Plone  
> that is an
> outstanding Web CMS or something like grails that is great at  
> building Web
> applications.  Integrating a CMS with a web application is  
> unnecessarily
> complicated and makes for a painful development experience, the  
> opposite of
> what grails is about.  It would be great to be able to build a web
> application using grails and have a simple plugin to manage content.
>
> Plone utilizes Zope which implements the Dublin Core "Meta-Data  
> system".
> What if we were to implement a Meta-Data/Content Management System,  
> possibly
> the Dublin Core,  that is a plugin to Grails....So that you could  
> build your
> web application using grails, and manage all the content with this  
> plugin.
> Anyone out there excited by this possibility?
> Just my 2 cents.

IMO we need a Grails JCR plugin that can back onto any JCR impl. We  
already have the makings of this in SVN courtesy of Graeme.

Then we just need a CMS plugin that uses this JCR plugin as its  
backing store.

Really though, a CMS is just a gluing together of authentication,  
authorisation content repository, and WYSIWYG JS editors. Lay the  
groundwork with sound plugins for these and then the CMS is a doddle.

JCR is partly done, in SVN
Authentic/Authoris-ation done in a few plugins, more to come (at least  
1 from me)
FCKEditor plugin is already developed

So it looks like all we need is a little bit of glue.

Marc


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Re: G2One needs your advice

Marc Palmer Local

On 2 Nov 2007, at 20:28, Steve Holmes wrote:

>
> I'm thinking we need something a little more "Meta-Data-y".  As I  
> understand,
> JCR it is a standard for how to interact with a repository.  I don't  
> believe
> it gives you a lot of Meta-Data about what is stored in the  
> repository, so
> you would need to build all that in objects.  A good CMS would have a
> content storage repository, and JMS makes perfect sense for that, plus
> Meta-Data tied to all content that could represent relations, etc.  
> It would
> be great to query the CMS asking for all NewsItems Relevant to this  
> City, or
> News Items that the User might find interesting based on stated  
> interests,
> location, etc.  I'm looking for much more intelligent content.
>

JCR has loads of meta-data, completely open if I recall. Plus you can  
have nodes of any type that don't represnet content directly, but  
references to other nodes etc. I don't -think- there's anything else  
you need. Its pretty comprehensive.

Marc


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Re: G2One needs your advice

iamsteveholmes
I may need to look into that a little more completely.  I was thinking it was meant to be a wrapper around a RDBMS, Filesystem, or VCS with a common query language.  I wasn't aware that it managed Meta-Data.

Marc Palmer Local wrote
On 2 Nov 2007, at 20:28, Steve Holmes wrote:

>
> I'm thinking we need something a little more "Meta-Data-y".  As I  
> understand,
> JCR it is a standard for how to interact with a repository.  I don't  
> believe
> it gives you a lot of Meta-Data about what is stored in the  
> repository, so
> you would need to build all that in objects.  A good CMS would have a
> content storage repository, and JMS makes perfect sense for that, plus
> Meta-Data tied to all content that could represent relations, etc.  
> It would
> be great to query the CMS asking for all NewsItems Relevant to this  
> City, or
> News Items that the User might find interesting based on stated  
> interests,
> location, etc.  I'm looking for much more intelligent content.
>

JCR has loads of meta-data, completely open if I recall. Plus you can  
have nodes of any type that don't represnet content directly, but  
references to other nodes etc. I don't -think- there's anything else  
you need. Its pretty comprehensive.

Marc


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Re: G2One needs your advice

themulti
In reply to this post by Steve Tekell
+1 Gricket

2007/11/1, Steve Tekell <[hidden email]>:

ok, I'll throw a few thoughts out there if no one else will

On Training
- I'd like the option for on site training.  I'd like to see course outlines
developed for multiple courses from which we can either take as is or
add/remove modules for a custom course.  These should be  "boot camp"
(highly intensive) and "no fluff, just stuff".  I should learn much more in
a week in the course than I would have on my own.  I should come away with
some decent reference material and the source code of working examples of
non-trivial examples.

On Support
- There's many acceptable models out there.  Although I do find it a little
odd that some don't offer phone support at any pricing level.

On Products
- I'd love to see a few things.  Gricket and Grone are two ideas I've had
and that I would contribute to (after I get more up to speed).

1) Gricket: Groovy/Grails + Wicket(1.3+) - fully integrated.
I'd like to see 0.1 Wicket plugin evolve into a first class UI option for
Grails development.  This would include the components (and builders)
necessary for dynamic scaffolding with full GORM integration for
relationships and validators.  Also, it should utilize Wicket 1.3's class
reloading, not available with the 0.1 plugin (and Wicket 1.2).  GORM is
great, but Grails current web-UI technology (MVC with tag based programming)
is not.  Wicket is strong where Grails is weak, but by itself Wicket lacks
the early stage productivity of Grails.

2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).
I guess this is beyond the scope of what you asking for, but I am frustrated
with the state of CMSes for Java.  PHP has some great Web-CMSes like Drupal.
Python/Zope has Plone - which is a great hybrid Web-CMS with documenent
management features like workflows and rules engine.  Java has nothing that
really compares well with Plone or Drupal - easy to use and powerful Web-CMS
for building community web sites.  BTW I have been using Alfresco for awhile
and well, it's not this kind of CMS.  I have also used portal servers like
Liferay and JBoss portal.  And while you can combine these with Alfresco to
get a comparable set of bullet points on your feature list, it's a
complicated, disintegrated, unusable mess, and a nightmare to maintain and
extend.  I thought if someone would bring Rails to the Java world via
Groovy, they might be interested in doing the same with Plone (or Drupal).

3) general integration/scripting comment
I'd love to be able to use Groovy where I can use Python/JavaScript for
working with applications that offer some scripting API.  Some I use offer
Python scripting and some JavaScript.  If I were G2One, I'd probably try to
get the ball rolling by working some high profile applications.  I think
Alfresco is considering adding it as another scripting option.

On Documentation
- BTW Groovy and Grails need much better documentation.  I am hoping the
existence of G2One, will ensure the resources for professional documentation
for Groovy and Grails, similar to i21 and Spring.






glaforge wrote:

>
> Hi dear Groovy and Grails users,
>
>
> As you certainly already know by now, we launched G2One, a commercial
> entity sustaining the development of Groovy and Grails.
>
> Through G2One, we are providing professional services and commercial
> products around both technologies.
>
>
> G2One would love to hear your feedback and advice on what you, as a
> user, as a project manager, as a developer, as an architect, as a
> company, you would expect from us.
>
>
> - Support
>
> What kind of support packages would you like us to provide?
> Different levels of support? Different means of communication (phone /
> email)?
> Packages including possibly some potential products, connectors,
> management consoles?
>
> - Training
>
> What kind of training would you like to follow if your company was to
> provide you with such trainings?
> How long should it last ideally (two to five days)?
> What topics should be covered (introduction to Groovy and/or Grails,
> specific topics like DSLs in Groovy, advanced GORM, etc)
> Would you also prefer on site training, or public seminars, or both?
>
> - Consulting
>
> What would you need in terms of consulting?
> Architecture advice, feasibility studies, coaching/mentoring, project
> management, full-blown application development, even inshore/offshore,
> dedicated development of connectors?
>
> - Products
>
> This is obviously not about the development of Groovy and Grails
> themselves, since they are Open Source projects (and will obviously
> remain so), so I'm not talking here about the usual feature requests
> you may have in mind :-)
>
> It's about the kind of additional / side products you would be
> interested in having in order to better integrate Groovy and Grails in
> your IT infrastructure, for instance some management consoles with
> dedicated Groovy JMX beans, some specific Grails connectors for
> commercial products like ESBs, ERPs like SAP, CMS / Portal tools like
> Documentum, search engines like Autonomy's line of products, etc.
>
>
> I'm impatient to hear about your thoughts on what you would like G2One
> to provide you in terms of professional services and products.
> Feel free to answer me in private if you're not at ease with sharing
> your wishes in public, or directly here by brainstorming on the lists!
> G2One is there for you :-)
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
> http://www.g2one.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

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Re: G2One needs your advice

JamesPage
We all want grails to be a success... And by G2one being a success it will help grails.

The Challenge
Grails needs to become more hip if it going to win the battle of mind share.

http://www.google.com/trends?q=grails%2C+ruby+on+rails

As you can see grails has a long way to go to catch on with Rails on just google juice.

What Grails needs is some high octane sites running on it, that generates pr for the grails project.

Glen Smiths http://www.groovyblogs.org/ is a good start. But we need some applications that apply to a wider market.  Also Hamish's COW will be a good PR driver, as it meets a need for disconnected wiki's in developing countries where there is little Internet connectivity. But we need more.

If G2one was to focus on training then it depends on the success of Grails, as people would need to decide to switch to grails before forking out on training. Cool applications are generated by startups, and universities. Training is great for large corporates, but for start ups it is out of reach. Also if Grails is meant to be easy why do you need training? For grails to be hip it needs to be used by the start ups!

I am not saying that G2one should do some training and Graeme definitely understands that market, but it needs to do some other stuff as well.

The Solution
G2one needs to create some Software as a Service, that is cool, ground breaking, and acts as a PR conduit for grails. It needs to be a service so the price point is affordable to people in Chinia, as well as to the start up, but at the same time G2one can charge the large corporate enough money for G2one to drink champagne.

A good target for a service by G2one would be a service that is needed by the Grails community as that would be easy to market to. But it must have a larger potential market then just the grails community, if it is to act as the PR driver.

It can't be a me-too product. It also has to offer something that is a solution to problems that happen during the software development cycle.

The first step is to ask the community what challenges they face when developing and maintaining a web site. I will do that in the next email.

All the best

James

PS: I will barter some marketing consultancy for some training :)



On 11/2/07, Advanced Technology® <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1 Gricket

2007/11/1, Steve Tekell <[hidden email]>:

ok, I'll throw a few thoughts out there if no one else will

On Training
- I'd like the option for on site training.  I'd like to see course outlines
developed for multiple courses from which we can either take as is or
add/remove modules for a custom course.  These should be  "boot camp"
(highly intensive) and "no fluff, just stuff".  I should learn much more in
a week in the course than I would have on my own.  I should come away with
some decent reference material and the source code of working examples of
non-trivial examples.

On Support
- There's many acceptable models out there.  Although I do find it a little
odd that some don't offer phone support at any pricing level.

On Products
- I'd love to see a few things.  Gricket and Grone are two ideas I've had
and that I would contribute to (after I get more up to speed).

1) Gricket: Groovy/Grails + Wicket(1.3+) - fully integrated.
I'd like to see 0.1 Wicket plugin evolve into a first class UI option for
Grails development.  This would include the components (and builders)
necessary for dynamic scaffolding with full GORM integration for
relationships and validators.  Also, it should utilize Wicket 1.3's class
reloading, not available with the 0.1 plugin (and Wicket 1.2).  GORM is
great, but Grails current web-UI technology (MVC with tag based programming)
is not.  Wicket is strong where Grails is weak, but by itself Wicket lacks
the early stage productivity of Grails.

2) Grone: a Groovy CMS to compete with Plone (and Drupal, et al).
I guess this is beyond the scope of what you asking for, but I am frustrated
with the state of CMSes for Java.  PHP has some great Web-CMSes like Drupal.
Python/Zope has Plone - which is a great hybrid Web-CMS with documenent
management features like workflows and rules engine.  Java has nothing that
really compares well with Plone or Drupal - easy to use and powerful Web-CMS
for building community web sites.  BTW I have been using Alfresco for awhile
and well, it's not this kind of CMS.  I have also used portal servers like
Liferay and JBoss portal.  And while you can combine these with Alfresco to
get a comparable set of bullet points on your feature list, it's a
complicated, disintegrated, unusable mess, and a nightmare to maintain and
extend.  I thought if someone would bring Rails to the Java world via
Groovy, they might be interested in doing the same with Plone (or Drupal).

3) general integration/scripting comment
I'd love to be able to use Groovy where I can use Python/JavaScript for
working with applications that offer some scripting API.  Some I use offer
Python scripting and some JavaScript.  If I were G2One, I'd probably try to
get the ball rolling by working some high profile applications.  I think
Alfresco is considering adding it as another scripting option.

On Documentation
- BTW Groovy and Grails need much better documentation.  I am hoping the
existence of G2One, will ensure the resources for professional documentation
for Groovy and Grails, similar to i21 and Spring.






glaforge wrote:

>
> Hi dear Groovy and Grails users,
>
>
> As you certainly already know by now, we launched G2One, a commercial
> entity sustaining the development of Groovy and Grails.
>
> Through G2One, we are providing professional services and commercial
> products around both technologies.
>
>
> G2One would love to hear your feedback and advice on what you, as a
> user, as a project manager, as a developer, as an architect, as a
> company, you would expect from us.
>
>
> - Support
>
> What kind of support packages would you like us to provide?
> Different levels of support? Different means of communication (phone /
> email)?
> Packages including possibly some potential products, connectors,
> management consoles?
>
> - Training
>
> What kind of training would you like to follow if your company was to
> provide you with such trainings?
> How long should it last ideally (two to five days)?
> What topics should be covered (introduction to Groovy and/or Grails,
> specific topics like DSLs in Groovy, advanced GORM, etc)
> Would you also prefer on site training, or public seminars, or both?
>
> - Consulting
>
> What would you need in terms of consulting?
> Architecture advice, feasibility studies, coaching/mentoring, project
> management, full-blown application development, even inshore/offshore,
> dedicated development of connectors?
>
> - Products
>
> This is obviously not about the development of Groovy and Grails
> themselves, since they are Open Source projects (and will obviously
> remain so), so I'm not talking here about the usual feature requests
> you may have in mind :-)
>
> It's about the kind of additional / side products you would be
> interested in having in order to better integrate Groovy and Grails in
> your IT infrastructure, for instance some management consoles with
> dedicated Groovy JMX beans, some specific Grails connectors for
> commercial products like ESBs, ERPs like SAP, CMS / Portal tools like
> Documentum, search engines like Autonomy's line of products, etc.
>
>
> I'm impatient to hear about your thoughts on what you would like G2One
> to provide you in terms of professional services and products.
> Feel free to answer me in private if you're not at ease with sharing
> your wishes in public, or directly here by brainstorming on the lists!
> G2One is there for you :-)
>
>
> Thanks in advance for your feedback.
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> G2One, Inc. Vice-President Technology
> <a href="http://www.g2one.com" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://www.g2one.com
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     <a href="http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email" target="_blank" onclick="return top.js.OpenExtLink(window,event,this)">http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Randall R Schulz
On Monday 05 November 2007 04:21, James Page wrote:
> ...
>
> Grails needs to become more hip if it going to win the battle of mind
> share.

Hip??

Are we software engineers or kids trying to win a popularity contest?


Randall Schulz

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Steven Devijver
On 11/5/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Monday 05 November 2007 04:21, James Page wrote:
> > ...
> >
> > Grails needs to become more hip if it going to win the battle of mind
> > share.
>
> Hip??
>
> Are we software engineers or kids trying to win a popularity contest?
>
>

We're software engineers in a market created by a kid that won a
popularity contest.

> Randall Schulz
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Randall R Schulz
On Monday 05 November 2007 06:59, Steven Devijver wrote:

> On 11/5/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Monday 05 November 2007 04:21, James Page wrote:
> > > ...
> > >
> > > Grails needs to become more hip if it going to win the battle of
> > > mind share.
> >
> > Hip??
> >
> > Are we software engineers or kids trying to win a popularity
> > contest?
>
> We're software engineers in a market created by a kid that won a
> popularity contest.
>
> > Randall Schulz


Perhaps this little meditation needs to be updated to include Groovy?

<http://davidrupp.blogspot.com/2007/10/last-language-war-language-trolling.html>

Which, umm, participant in this dialogue would Groovy most resemble, I
wonder?


RRS

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Re: G2One needs your advice

Ricardo J. Méndez
In reply to this post by Randall R Schulz
There's a reason why even on this technically-minded list the question "Who is using Grails?" gets asked so often:   no language or tool gains a strong hold by abstract merits alone.   Perceived support and stability, in the form of widespread usage, will be as important as the actual caliber of the tool.

In that sense, Grails does have a popularity contest to win.


On 11/5/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Monday 05 November 2007 04:21, James Page wrote:
> ...
>
> Grails needs to become more hip if it going to win the battle of mind
> share.

Hip??

Are we software engineers or kids trying to win a popularity contest?


Randall Schulz

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Ricardo J. Méndez
http://ricardo.strangevistas.net/
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Re: G2One needs your advice

Randall R Schulz
On Monday 05 November 2007 10:38, Ricardo J. Méndez wrote:
> There's a reason why even on this technically-minded list the
> question "Who is using Grails?" gets asked so often:   no language or
> tool gains a strong hold by abstract merits alone.   Perceived
> support and stability, in the form of widespread usage, will be as
> important as the actual caliber of the tool.
>
> In that sense, Grails does have a popularity contest to win.

Momentum and sizeable user base as bases for concluding that the
platform is one that can be counted on to be sustained is one thing and
often the best thing one has to go on, early on.

"Hipness" is just silly.


Randall Schulz

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Re: G2One needs your advice

JamesPage
My dictionary says that Hip means " Very fashionable or stylish."  and groovy - (British informal) very stylish;

So if grails is groovy, and groovy is stylish, and stylish is hip, therefore grails is hip :-)

Forgetting about semantics,  back to my original question if as you agree that Momentum and sizable user base is important.

How do you break out from being behind other technologies in mindshare? How do you get the Slashdot's, O'Reilly, Digg Techcrunch talking about the Grails platform?


On 11/5/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Monday 05 November 2007 10:38, Ricardo J. Méndez wrote:
> There's a reason why even on this technically-minded list the
> question "Who is using Grails?" gets asked so often:   no language or
> tool gains a strong hold by abstract merits alone.   Perceived
> support and stability, in the form of widespread usage, will be as
> important as the actual caliber of the tool.
>
> In that sense, Grails does have a popularity contest to win.

Momentum and sizeable user base as bases for concluding that the
platform is one that can be counted on to be sustained is one thing and
often the best thing one has to go on, early on.

"Hipness" is just silly.


Randall Schulz

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12