GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

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GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Sam Pullara
How tied is Grails to using Hibernate vs. using generic JPA  
bindings?  I'm a little concerned that by tying the project to an  
LGPL library that we are fundamentally limiting the audience for the  
framework and the ability for us to innovate.

Sam


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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

graemer
At the moment pretty tied. The problem is JPA's lack of a criteria API
and an API to customise the configuration mechanism (ie you have to
use annotations).

As for LGPL, what concerns do you have? You're free to create whatever
products you want with Grails I don't see LGPL limiting it

It would only limited you if you tried to customise and re-sell it as
an ORM tool. For this there may be legs, but then what Apache licensed
ORM tools do you know of that aren't crap?

Cheers

On 9/30/07, Sam Pullara <[hidden email]> wrote:

> How tied is Grails to using Hibernate vs. using generic JPA
> bindings?  I'm a little concerned that by tying the project to an
> LGPL library that we are fundamentally limiting the audience for the
> framework and the ability for us to innovate.
>
> Sam
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>


--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
http://grails.org

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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Sam Pullara
So it sounds pretty tied though I think you can make a criteria API  
that generates EJB-QL without much trouble...

As for the LGPL... I've found that software companies are loath to  
put any dependencies on Hibernate because of the license.  It also  
means that Grails is pretty dependent on the Hibernate team fixing  
bugs and making enhancements that benefit Grails.  I didn't say it  
was a huge problem but it does limit the audience somewhat.

As for the decision to not use JPA, it makes Grails look a little non-
standard which might be fine depending on eventual audience.  But if  
you ever want Oracle, IBM, or BEA to ship Grails in their products I  
think we might want to make it JPA rather than explicitly Hibernate.

At the end of the day though I would do what is most practical so if  
you think that the other implementations will never be as good or  
better than Hibernate and that there won't be any adoption problems  
with software companies and enterprises I'll just let the issue  
rest.  Just wanted to air a bit of my concerns and the possible risks.

Sam

On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Graeme Rocher wrote:

> At the moment pretty tied. The problem is JPA's lack of a criteria API
> and an API to customise the configuration mechanism (ie you have to
> use annotations).
>
> As for LGPL, what concerns do you have? You're free to create whatever
> products you want with Grails I don't see LGPL limiting it
>
> It would only limited you if you tried to customise and re-sell it as
> an ORM tool. For this there may be legs, but then what Apache licensed
> ORM tools do you know of that aren't crap?
>
> Cheers
>
> On 9/30/07, Sam Pullara <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> How tied is Grails to using Hibernate vs. using generic JPA
>> bindings?  I'm a little concerned that by tying the project to an
>> LGPL library that we are fundamentally limiting the audience for the
>> framework and the ability for us to innovate.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>>
>>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Graeme Rocher
> Grails Project Lead
> http://grails.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>


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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Marc Palmer Local

On 30 Sep 2007, at 21:51, Sam Pullara wrote:

> So it sounds pretty tied though I think you can make a criteria API  
> that generates EJB-QL without much trouble...
>
> As for the LGPL... I've found that software companies are loath to  
> put any dependencies on Hibernate because of the license.  It also  
> means that Grails is pretty dependent on the Hibernate team fixing  
> bugs and making enhancements that benefit Grails.  I didn't say it  
> was a huge problem but it does limit the audience somewhat.
>

I thought that Hibernate was pretty defacto these days. Spring +  
Hibernate is generally the EE platform of choice for those in the  
know, and EJB/JPA is for the corps that are "Sun all the way",  
roughly speaking.

> As for the decision to not use JPA, it makes Grails look a little  
> non-standard which might be fine depending on eventual audience.  
> But if you ever want Oracle, IBM, or BEA to ship Grails in their  
> products I think we might want to make it JPA rather than  
> explicitly Hibernate.
>

I'm not sure this makes sense. What is there to ship. Grails builds  
WARs, there is no framework to install. Unless you mean within their  
development tools, but then I imagine there's no problem as the LGPL  
surely applied to applications made -with- Grails not applications  
that allow you to "make" applications with Grails.

> At the end of the day though I would do what is most practical so  
> if you think that the other implementations will never be as good  
> or better than Hibernate and that there won't be any adoption  
> problems with software companies and enterprises I'll just let the  
> issue rest.  Just wanted to air a bit of my concerns and the  
> possible risks.
>

Yes, I understand. I don't think this is a major problem though.  
Furthermore, people can always write a plugin that replicates some/
all of GORM but with a different ORM mechanism.

Marc


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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Steven Devijver
In reply to this post by Sam Pullara
On 9/30/07, Sam Pullara <[hidden email]> wrote:

> So it sounds pretty tied though I think you can make a criteria API
> that generates EJB-QL without much trouble...
>
> As for the LGPL... I've found that software companies are loath to
> put any dependencies on Hibernate because of the license.  It also
> means that Grails is pretty dependent on the Hibernate team fixing
> bugs and making enhancements that benefit Grails.  I didn't say it
> was a huge problem but it does limit the audience somewhat.
>
> As for the decision to not use JPA, it makes Grails look a little non-
> standard which might be fine depending on eventual audience.  But if
> you ever want Oracle, IBM, or BEA to ship Grails in their products I
> think we might want to make it JPA rather than explicitly Hibernate.

As Graeme indicated there is currently really no option to use JPA.
Hibernate offers the criteria API and the custom configuration hooks
that are required by Grails.

Lets say that if there were no Hibernate and only JPA Grails wouldn't
be what it is today.


>
> At the end of the day though I would do what is most practical so if
> you think that the other implementations will never be as good or
> better than Hibernate and that there won't be any adoption problems
> with software companies and enterprises I'll just let the issue
> rest.  Just wanted to air a bit of my concerns and the possible risks.
>
> Sam
>
> On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Graeme Rocher wrote:
>
> > At the moment pretty tied. The problem is JPA's lack of a criteria API
> > and an API to customise the configuration mechanism (ie you have to
> > use annotations).
> >
> > As for LGPL, what concerns do you have? You're free to create whatever
> > products you want with Grails I don't see LGPL limiting it
> >
> > It would only limited you if you tried to customise and re-sell it as
> > an ORM tool. For this there may be legs, but then what Apache licensed
> > ORM tools do you know of that aren't crap?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On 9/30/07, Sam Pullara <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> How tied is Grails to using Hibernate vs. using generic JPA
> >> bindings?  I'm a little concerned that by tying the project to an
> >> LGPL library that we are fundamentally limiting the audience for the
> >> framework and the ability for us to innovate.
> >>
> >> Sam
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
> >>
> >>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Graeme Rocher
> > Grails Project Lead
> > http://grails.org
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
> >
> >     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> >
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

graemer
On 10/1/07, Steven Devijver <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 9/30/07, Sam Pullara <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > So it sounds pretty tied though I think you can make a criteria API
> > that generates EJB-QL without much trouble...
> >
> > As for the LGPL... I've found that software companies are loath to
> > put any dependencies on Hibernate because of the license.  It also
> > means that Grails is pretty dependent on the Hibernate team fixing
> > bugs and making enhancements that benefit Grails.  I didn't say it
> > was a huge problem but it does limit the audience somewhat.
> >
> > As for the decision to not use JPA, it makes Grails look a little non-
> > standard which might be fine depending on eventual audience.  But if
> > you ever want Oracle, IBM, or BEA to ship Grails in their products I
> > think we might want to make it JPA rather than explicitly Hibernate.
>
> As Graeme indicated there is currently really no option to use JPA.
> Hibernate offers the criteria API and the custom configuration hooks
> that are required by Grails.
>
> Lets say that if there were no Hibernate and only JPA Grails wouldn't
> be what it is today.

Indeed. Also JPA wasn't even finalised yet when we started Grails. I'm
still awaiting the answer to an Apache licensed ORM tool that is not
rubbish? Really I would love to hear of one (btw iBatis doesn't count
as its not really an ORM tool)

Cheers

>
>
> >
> > At the end of the day though I would do what is most practical so if
> > you think that the other implementations will never be as good or
> > better than Hibernate and that there won't be any adoption problems
> > with software companies and enterprises I'll just let the issue
> > rest.  Just wanted to air a bit of my concerns and the possible risks.
> >
> > Sam
> >
> > On Sep 30, 2007, at 1:36 PM, Graeme Rocher wrote:
> >
> > > At the moment pretty tied. The problem is JPA's lack of a criteria API
> > > and an API to customise the configuration mechanism (ie you have to
> > > use annotations).
> > >
> > > As for LGPL, what concerns do you have? You're free to create whatever
> > > products you want with Grails I don't see LGPL limiting it
> > >
> > > It would only limited you if you tried to customise and re-sell it as
> > > an ORM tool. For this there may be legs, but then what Apache licensed
> > > ORM tools do you know of that aren't crap?
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > On 9/30/07, Sam Pullara <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> How tied is Grails to using Hibernate vs. using generic JPA
> > >> bindings?  I'm a little concerned that by tying the project to an
> > >> LGPL library that we are fundamentally limiting the audience for the
> > >> framework and the ability for us to innovate.
> > >>
> > >> Sam
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
> > >>
> > >>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Graeme Rocher
> > > Grails Project Lead
> > > http://grails.org
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
> > >
> > >     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> > >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
> >
> >     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>


--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
http://grails.org

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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Dmitriy Kopylenko-3


Indeed. Also JPA wasn't even finalised yet when we started Grails. I'm
still awaiting the answer to an Apache licensed ORM tool that is not
rubbish? Really I would love to hear of one (btw iBatis doesn't count
as its not really an ORM tool)

 
JPA-based you mean? OpenJPA perhaps?


Dmitriy.

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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

graemer
On 10/1/07, Dmitriy Kopylenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Indeed. Also JPA wasn't even finalised yet when we started Grails. I'm
> > still awaiting the answer to an Apache licensed ORM tool that is not
> > rubbish? Really I would love to hear of one (btw iBatis doesn't count
> > as its not really an ORM tool)
>
>  JPA-based you mean? OpenJPA perhaps?

Ok, just released around a month ago, so a recent development. Might
be a worth a look

Cheers

>
>
> Dmitriy.
>
>


--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
http://grails.org

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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Dmitriy Kopylenko-3
Built on the supposedly solid codebase of BEA's Kodo.

Please note, I'm not "pushing" OpenJPA and in fact I have no experience with it whatsoever. Just throwing some potential options on the table :-)

Cheers,
Dmitriy.

P.S.

BTW, here's a good overview of the product by Patrick: http://www.infoq.com/interviews/openjpa-patrick-linskey



2007/10/1, Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]>:
On 10/1/07, Dmitriy Kopylenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> >
> > Indeed. Also JPA wasn't even finalised yet when we started Grails. I'm
> > still awaiting the answer to an Apache licensed ORM tool that is not
> > rubbish? Really I would love to hear of one (btw iBatis doesn't count
> > as its not really an ORM tool)
>
>  JPA-based you mean? OpenJPA perhaps?

Ok, just released around a month ago, so a recent development. Might
be a worth a look

Cheers

>
>
> Dmitriy.
>
>


--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
http://grails.org

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Re: GORM - Hibernate vs JPA

Steven Devijver
In reply to this post by graemer
On 10/1/07, Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 10/1/07, Dmitriy Kopylenko <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > Indeed. Also JPA wasn't even finalised yet when we started Grails. I'm
> > > still awaiting the answer to an Apache licensed ORM tool that is not
> > > rubbish? Really I would love to hear of one (btw iBatis doesn't count
> > > as its not really an ORM tool)
> >
> >  JPA-based you mean? OpenJPA perhaps?
>
> Ok, just released around a month ago, so a recent development. Might
> be a worth a look
>
Don't bother. I've loaded the OpenJPA JAR file in Structure 101, it's
a total mess. XS of 82% (Hibernate is 108%!!). Compare with Spring at
2%.

See attachment.

Steven


> Cheers
>
> >
> >
> > Dmitriy.
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Graeme Rocher
> Grails Project Lead
> http://grails.org
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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