Grails adoption

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Grails adoption

Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
       Hi, everybody.

       I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

       What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

       I'm just wondering...

       Best regards,

               Daniel.

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Re: Grails adoption

Mengu
In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up. 

2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
     Hi, everybody.

     I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

     What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

     I'm just wondering...

     Best regards,

             Daniel.

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Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local

On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:

> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>
> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>

I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.

My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.

Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.

Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?

Marc


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Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local

On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:50, Marc Palmer wrote:

>
> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>
>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>>
>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>     Hi, everybody.
>>
>>     I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>     What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>>
>>     I'm just wondering...
>>
>
> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>
> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>

That is meant to be a *gut* feeling. I'm not in touch with my inner guy.

Marc
 


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Re: Grails adoption

Kimble
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
This is my impression as well.

Google Trends shows a hint of stagnation.
http://www.google.com/trends?q=grails

Productivity and ease of use is Grails biggest strength imo. I don't know if you ever can call a web framework feature complete, but I think Grails is pretty close now. New features can always be added via plugins anyway. I would like to see even more improvements in terms of stability, testing and productivity. This is as far as I'm concerned the only way of tempting larger companies into adopting Grails.
 - Kim A. Betti
Have a nice day!
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Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local

On 2 Feb 2011, at 13:26, Kimble wrote:

>
> This is my impression as well.
>
> Google Trends shows a hint of stagnation.
> http://www.google.com/trends?q=grails
>
> Productivity and ease of use is Grails biggest strength imo. I don't know if
> you ever can call a web framework feature complete, but I think Grails is
> pretty close now. New features can always be added via plugins anyway. I
> would like to see even more improvements in terms of stability, testing and
> productivity. This is as far as I'm concerned the only way of tempting
> larger companies into adopting Grails.
>

Yes, quality and freedom from regressions are the major future wins in core.

However I would say that actually, growing market share now is all about taking the community to a whole new level.

Marc



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Re: Grails adoption

Sébastien Blanc
Well I can share my own experience.  years ago my company had 0% grails based projects and today 30% of our projects/assignments are using Grails. Why ?
Because guys like me have put enough effort inside the company to evangelize the MT and the employees : giving presentations , giving workshops, attending conferences ... And one day they finally choose grails for a POC, see how awesome it is and that's the start point , if the whole community will do the same thing (not just using grails for petstore projects)  it will help grails to growth
My 2 cents
Seb


Le Feb 2, 2011 à 15:03, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> a écrit :

>
> On 2 Feb 2011, at 13:26, Kimble wrote:
>
>>
>> This is my impression as well.
>>
>> Google Trends shows a hint of stagnation.
>> http://www.google.com/trends?q=grails
>>
>> Productivity and ease of use is Grails biggest strength imo. I don't know if
>> you ever can call a web framework feature complete, but I think Grails is
>> pretty close now. New features can always be added via plugins anyway. I
>> would like to see even more improvements in terms of stability, testing and
>> productivity. This is as far as I'm concerned the only way of tempting
>> larger companies into adopting Grails.
>>
>
> Yes, quality and freedom from regressions are the major future wins in core.
>
> However I would say that actually, growing market share now is all about taking the community to a whole new level.
>
> Marc
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

Martijn Vos
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local


On 2/2/11 1:50 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>
>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
>>usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
>>closely and using it for a start-up.
>>
>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>      Hi, everybody.
>>
>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>>
>>      I'm just wondering...
>>
>
>I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
>seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
>increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>
>My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
>touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>
>Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
>base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
>share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>
>Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?

No stats, but an anecdote: over the past year, we worked on a pretty big
project in Grails that was part of a much bigger project that definitely
counts as enterprise. Our part was only the web front-end for the entire
thing, talking to the other parts through SOAP.

If you need a web front-end for your enterprisey stuff, I don't see why
Grails would be a worse choice than any of the hundreds of Java web
frameworks.

Of course the real issue for any big enterprise project is finding
programmers willing to do it, so sticking to the biggest Java framworks
has its advantages there.


mcv.

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Re: Grails adoption

Martijn Thieme
To elaborate on that:

- We currently have developed about 15 different Grails applications since
2008, mostly in the range of 100-1500 hours each
- This covers about half of the projects that we do at our dev department
(using php/flash/flex/air for others as well)
- Since that time, we haven't started any new web projects in Java
anymore...
- Our customers usually give us full freedom over the technology to
choose, so that helps.

I fully agree with Sebastian regarding the approach. Star off with
pet-projects and smaller ones first, getting the other developers
enthusiastic etc.

  Cheers,
  Martijn



On 2/2/11 16:15 , "Martijn Vos" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>On 2/2/11 1:50 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
>>>usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
>>>closely and using it for a start-up.
>>>
>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>
>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but
>>>i'm
>>> looking for new answers:
>>>
>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>
>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>
>>
>>I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
>>seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
>>increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>
>>My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
>>touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>
>>Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
>>base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
>>share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>
>>Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>
>No stats, but an anecdote: over the past year, we worked on a pretty big
>project in Grails that was part of a much bigger project that definitely
>counts as enterprise. Our part was only the web front-end for the entire
>thing, talking to the other parts through SOAP.
>
>If you need a web front-end for your enterprisey stuff, I don't see why
>Grails would be a worse choice than any of the hundreds of Java web
>frameworks.
>
>Of course the real issue for any big enterprise project is finding
>programmers willing to do it, so sticking to the biggest Java framworks
>has its advantages there.
>
>
>mcv.
>

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Re: Grails adoption

Graeme Rocher
Administrator
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>
>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>>
>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>      Hi, everybody.
>>
>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>>
>>      I'm just wondering...
>>
>
> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>
> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>
> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>
> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?



Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails

Take from that what you will

Cheers


>
> Marc
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>



--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
SpringSource - A Division of VMware
http://www.springsource.com

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Re: Grails adoption

Daniel Honig
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
I have to agree with Marc.

When talking to enterprise-y types they go nuts about using a "dynamic language"?
Then I remind them they are already using things like Aspects in the Spring framework,
and languages like perl, so why is groovy any different?  That usually leads to some harsher rhetoric....lol.

With the ruby types, I just don't think it is a battle that can be won.  JRuby has gotten to be very good and Rails 3 brings a heap of nice improvements to the framework.  

I consider Grails to be a superior framework...but how do you convince the kids to use it?
Rails is *cool*, grails is well, Grails?  

To me Grails is a fine 18 year old scotch, but the kids just want to shoot Jameson.



On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 7:50 AM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:

> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>
> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>

I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.

My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.

Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.

Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?

Marc


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Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local
In reply to this post by Graeme Rocher

On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>>>
>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>
>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>>> looking for new answers:
>>>
>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>
>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>
>>
>> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>
>> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>
>> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>
>> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>
>
>
> Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>
> Take from that what you will

Not bad, but compare:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=

:(



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Re: Grails adoption

Roberto Guerra
I introduced grails at my job 'guerilla style'. My boss didn't want anything to do with it. His saying was(and still is) 'THIS IS A JAVA SHOP'.  He didn't understand what groovy was, and still doesn't. One of his arguments was : there is no standard for groovy. Well, I had to dig up the JSR and show him. The problem is mostly managers. Since alot dont programme anymore, they feel safe in whatever niche they chose, and are reluctant to change. 

Now, every new project that I start to work on, uses Grails. These are mostly small projects. The biggest one I have started is an HR programme that is taking longer than expected, but because I have to multi-task. 

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>
>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>>>
>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>
>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>>> looking for new answers:
>>>
>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>
>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>
>>
>> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>
>> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>
>> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>
>> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>
>
>
> Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>
> Take from that what you will

Not bad, but compare:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=

:(



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Re: Grails adoption

Graeme Rocher
Administrator
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>>
>>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>>>> looking for new answers:
>>>>
>>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>>
>>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>>
>>> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>>
>>> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>>
>>> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>>
>> Take from that what you will
>
> Not bad, but compare:
>
> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=
>
> :(

The relative growth is not too bad ;-)

Cheers

>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>



--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
SpringSource - A Division of VMware
http://www.springsource.com

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Re: Grails adoption

Jason Davis
In reply to this post by Roberto Guerra
For me, Groovy has been key to adopting grails. Groovy is an easy sell
for writing system scripts. Most Java developers love this, as Java
has never been a language for duct taping/cron jobs etc.
I think once people get over the potently wild Groovy syntax, they
loosen up to the whole idea of Grails.  $.02



On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I introduced grails at my job 'guerilla style'. My boss didn't want anything
> to do with it. His saying was(and still is) 'THIS IS A JAVA SHOP'.  He
> didn't understand what groovy was, and still doesn't. One of his arguments
> was : there is no standard for groovy. Well, I had to dig up the JSR and
> show him. The problem is mostly managers. Since alot dont programme anymore,
> they feel safe in whatever niche they chose, and are reluctant to change.
> Now, every new project that I start to work on, uses Grails. These are
> mostly small projects. The biggest one I have started is an HR programme
> that is taking longer than expected, but because I have to multi-task.
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:
>>
>> > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
>> >>> usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely
>> >>> and using it for a start-up.
>> >>>
>> >>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>> >>>      Hi, everybody.
>> >>>
>> >>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but
>> >>> i'm
>> >>> looking for new answers:
>> >>>
>> >>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> >>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> >>> What is holding back Grails?
>> >>>
>> >>>      I'm just wondering...
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
>> >> seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
>> >> increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>> >>
>> >> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
>> >> touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>> >>
>> >> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
>> >> base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
>> >> share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>> >>
>> >> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
>> > http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>> >
>> > Take from that what you will
>>
>> Not bad, but compare:
>>
>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=
>>
>> :(
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

scryan
For us it is all about cost and scalability.  We have done over 30 production applications ranging from 10 to over 100,000 users and very complex environments like multi-tenant etc.  The customers like that it is java under the covers and uses frameworks they know and understand like spring, hibernate, dojo etc. and our development costs is orders of magnitude less than using other frameworks.

Scott Ryan

On Feb 2, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Jason Davis wrote:

> For me, Groovy has been key to adopting grails. Groovy is an easy sell
> for writing system scripts. Most Java developers love this, as Java
> has never been a language for duct taping/cron jobs etc.
> I think once people get over the potently wild Groovy syntax, they
> loosen up to the whole idea of Grails.  $.02
>
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:49 AM, Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I introduced grails at my job 'guerilla style'. My boss didn't want anything
>> to do with it. His saying was(and still is) 'THIS IS A JAVA SHOP'.  He
>> didn't understand what groovy was, and still doesn't. One of his arguments
>> was : there is no standard for groovy. Well, I had to dig up the JSR and
>> show him. The problem is mostly managers. Since alot dont programme anymore,
>> they feel safe in whatever niche they chose, and are reluctant to change.
>> Now, every new project that I start to work on, uses Grails. These are
>> mostly small projects. The biggest one I have started is an HR programme
>> that is taking longer than expected, but because I have to multi-task.
>>
>> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 10:37 AM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
>>>>>> usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely
>>>>>> and using it for a start-up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but
>>>>>> i'm
>>>>>> looking for new answers:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>>>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>>>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
>>>>> seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
>>>>> increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>>>>
>>>>> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
>>>>> touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
>>>>> base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
>>>>> share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
>>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>>>>
>>>> Take from that what you will
>>>
>>> Not bad, but compare:
>>>
>>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=
>>>
>>> :(
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>
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Re: Grails adoption

Nicolás Dijkstra
In reply to this post by Graeme Rocher
I consider myself as a Grails Evangelizer and have a couple of interesting proejcts as a proof that THIS is a great and amazing tool for Rapid Application Development. Everyone who i tried to "convert" to the grails side is, at least, astonished by the way you can easily create web applications and with all the plugins available. The one i love most, is Searchable. This is one of the features i like to show to my apprentices.

I truly believe in Grails and can't think of a new project without it.


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:37 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very closely and using it for a start-up.
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>>
>>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>>>> looking for new answers:
>>>>
>>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>>
>>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>>
>>> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>>
>>> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>>
>>> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>>
>> Take from that what you will
>
> Not bad, but compare:
>
> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=
>
> :(

The relative growth is not too bad ;-)

Cheers

>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>



--
Graeme Rocher
Grails Project Lead
SpringSource - A Division of VMware
http://www.springsource.com

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Nicolás Dijkstra
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Re: Grails adoption

pledbrook
In reply to this post by Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?

This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.

Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.

Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
of impact these things have. What are your experiences?

On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
types of team.

BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.

Thanks,

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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Re: Grails adoption

Erik  Pragt
In reply to this post by Martijn Vos

On 2 feb 2011, at 16:15, Martijn Vos wrote:



On 2/2/11 1:50 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:

In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
closely and using it for a start-up.

2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
    Hi, everybody.

    I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

    What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

    I'm just wondering...


I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.

My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.

Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.

Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?

No stats, but an anecdote: over the past year, we worked on a pretty big
project in Grails that was part of a much bigger project that definitely
counts as enterprise. Our part was only the web front-end for the entire
thing, talking to the other parts through SOAP.

Hmm, I might have heard of this project of yours ;-)

If you need a web front-end for your enterprisey stuff, I don't see why
Grails would be a worse choice than any of the hundreds of Java web
frameworks.

Of course the real issue for any big enterprise project is finding
programmers willing to do it, so sticking to the biggest Java framworks
has its advantages there.

That's certainly true. Finding good Grails programmers is one of our biggest challenges. Luckily it's based on Java, and usually, within some weeks people are quite productive. IMO, it also helps if you've got a more university background, since a lot of university students have encountered things like functional programming, making Groovy even easier to learn.

Erik

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Re: Grails adoption

Daniel Glauser
This is a good conversation.

In the Denver market I've noticed a definite increase it the amount of Grails jobs.  Also at one of the DJUG meetings about six months ago around 2/3 of the 50+ attendees were using Groovy at their jobs.  Of course, the folks that go to Java User Group meetings are the kind of folks that generally see the value in something like Groovy and Grails but it was nice to see.

I spend *a lot* of time defending Groovy and Grails in the workplace.  Things from, "we should be doing core Java" to "I think Grails is better suited for one off projects, not enterprise ecosystems."  That last one was fun, I showed how Grails was the best choice for enterprise ecosystems since you can easily drop in Spring beans, pull a JAR from a Maven repository or roll your own plugins, providing uniformity across your projects.  

I spend a lot of time educating and fighting misconceptions.  There are a lot of Java devs who are complacent in what they know and don't see a lot of value in looking past that.  The way I typically get Grails in is by showing management we can get the job done faster and cheaper.  Recently I walked my director (a former developer) through the code of one of our apps.  He was sold once I got to the dynamic finders.

Another great sell for Grails has been working with offshore.  I don't have to tell them where to put things and enforce a project structure, the framework does that for me.  Since the cost of communication is so high with offshore developers anything you don't have to communicate is a net win.

Cheers,
Daniel


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Erik Pragt <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2 feb 2011, at 16:15, Martijn Vos wrote:



On 2/2/11 1:50 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:

In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
closely and using it for a start-up.

2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
    Hi, everybody.

    I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

    What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

    I'm just wondering...


I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.

My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.

Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.

Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?

No stats, but an anecdote: over the past year, we worked on a pretty big
project in Grails that was part of a much bigger project that definitely
counts as enterprise. Our part was only the web front-end for the entire
thing, talking to the other parts through SOAP.

Hmm, I might have heard of this project of yours ;-)


If you need a web front-end for your enterprisey stuff, I don't see why
Grails would be a worse choice than any of the hundreds of Java web
frameworks.

Of course the real issue for any big enterprise project is finding
programmers willing to do it, so sticking to the biggest Java framworks
has its advantages there.

That's certainly true. Finding good Grails programmers is one of our biggest challenges. Luckily it's based on Java, and usually, within some weeks people are quite productive. IMO, it also helps if you've got a more university background, since a lot of university students have encountered things like functional programming, making Groovy even easier to learn.

Erik


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