Grails adoption

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Re: Grails adoption

Erik  Pragt

On 2 feb 2011, at 18:23, Peter Ledbrook wrote:

>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.

Personally, I think if you're targetting PHP shops, you will loose some of your audience. My personal experience is that Java coders a little bit more professional compared to PHP, and maybe Rails programmers. If Rails is a step up from PHP, I certainly hope that Groovy/Grails is a step up from Java, especially for any web application. To keep that focus is key, IMO.

> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.

One of the things which annoys me is the lack of good multi module support. I have been using Grails for the last 3 years now, but I have a Java/Maven background. I like Maven a lot, and mostly because it has great support for modules. So my Java applications often consist of a ui module, a domain/service layer module, some util stuff, and often a persistence module. I sometimes do this for reusability, but mostly for organizing my code. When I have a 100.000+ project, I really don't want to put it in one project, and organize everything by using packages only. However, when using Grails, I really miss organizing your code this way. Yes, you can create plugins to put your code in, but I don't want a plugin, I want a module. Plugins are confusing, since you can start them, they enforce a directory structure (even if you remove the directories, a new start of your application will get them back). I also tried using GMaven, but GMaven itself seems to be a bit unstable, the documentation is bad, and configuration takes much more XML than necessary, but most importantly, the integration with Grails is a bit painful, and certainly not a smooth as Maven multi modules.

All in all, this feels to me like Grails is a great tool for building small UI centered web applications, but  less suitable for more serious 'enterprisy' applications. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Grails! I currently do 100% Grails in my job, and 30% Grails in my spare time. However, I really think that support for modules (for the reasons above) should be much better to take a serious role as a replacement for Enterprise applications.

Kind regards,

Erik Pragt

>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
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Re: Grails adoption

xmly
I think this is all framework's common problem. There is no clear guide how to scale the application, or there are some guides I missed? 

Best,
Gavin

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 5:04 PM, Erik Pragt <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2 feb 2011, at 18:23, Peter Ledbrook wrote:

>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.

Personally, I think if you're targetting PHP shops, you will loose some of your audience. My personal experience is that Java coders a little bit more professional compared to PHP, and maybe Rails programmers. If Rails is a step up from PHP, I certainly hope that Groovy/Grails is a step up from Java, especially for any web application. To keep that focus is key, IMO.

> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.

One of the things which annoys me is the lack of good multi module support. I have been using Grails for the last 3 years now, but I have a Java/Maven background. I like Maven a lot, and mostly because it has great support for modules. So my Java applications often consist of a ui module, a domain/service layer module, some util stuff, and often a persistence module. I sometimes do this for reusability, but mostly for organizing my code. When I have a 100.000+ project, I really don't want to put it in one project, and organize everything by using packages only. However, when using Grails, I really miss organizing your code this way. Yes, you can create plugins to put your code in, but I don't want a plugin, I want a module. Plugins are confusing, since you can start them, they enforce a directory structure (even if you remove the directories, a new start of your application will get them back). I also tried using GMaven, but GMaven itself seems to be a bit unstable, the documentation is bad, and configuration takes much more XML than necessary, but most importantly, the integration with Grails is a bit painful, and certainly not a smooth as Maven multi modules.

All in all, this feels to me like Grails is a great tool for building small UI centered web applications, but  less suitable for more serious 'enterprisy' applications. Don't get me wrong, I am a big fan of Grails! I currently do 100% Grails in my job, and 30% Grails in my spare time. However, I really think that support for modules (for the reasons above) should be much better to take a serious role as a replacement for Enterprise applications.

Kind regards,

Erik Pragt

>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>


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Re: Grails adoption

Mauro
In reply to this post by John Thompson
On 4 February 2011 11:22, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> The anit-windows feeling is alive and well here too! ;-)

I'm an anti-windows at all.

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Re: Grails adoption

rlovtangen
In reply to this post by Daniel Honig
I also find the user guide very well organized. 
There's some missing pieces of information here and there, but the good thing is that it is easy to fork the github repo and contribute to the documentation. My experience is that pull requests are usually quickly applied to master.
IMO it would be great if a similar structure could be used for the Groovy user guide as well.

Ronny

On Feb 4, 2011, at 4:41 PM, Daniel Honig wrote:

Ken,
 Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
 I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for improvement.)

The directory:
 http://www.grails.org/Documentation

The user guide:
http://grails.org/doc/latest/

How might this documentation be improved?

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Ken Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
Peter -

One key difference I see between Grails and Rails is that Grails is
actually a good fit for enterprise/corporate applications because of
the Java interoperability and integration with Spring.

Rails as a development stack is great, but the Java deployment is very
well understood by IT departments, which makes Grails applications
much easier to deploy, from the corporate politics perspective. The
ability to deploy a Grails application as a WAR and treat it like any
other Java application is a huge selling point. Operations teams
already have tons of infrastructure and knowledge around managing and
monitoring Java app servers.

It would definitely be great to improve maven and Windows support; but
that only makes developers happy; ultimately IT has a big influence on
technology decisions and emphasizing the Java deployment aspects would
help to reduce barriers to Grails adoption. I think SpringSource needs
to do a better job of selling/advertising this aspect of Grails and
promote it as an "enterprise framework."

On another note, as a developer, I have heard a lot of complaints that
the documentation for both Groovy and Grails is lacking. The content
is there and is steadily improving, but it's all very disorganized and
hard to work through.

For example, look at the way the Groovy documentation is organized:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/User+Guide

It's in alphabetical order, and there's no logical way to progress
through the documentation. You basically have to go out and buy GIA if
you want to learn Groovy. Even for me as an experienced Groovy/Grails
developer I sometimes find it extremely difficult to find reference
information on the Groovy web site.

Compare to Apple or (gasp) Scala:
http://developer.apple.com/resources/
http://www.scala-lang.org/node/104

On the Grails side, the wiki contains a lot of crufty old information
referencing old pre-1.0 releases of Grails; this needs to be archived
somewhere because these pages seem to rank high in Google searches and
leave new developers with the impression that Grails is not
progressing, when in fact it is constantly being improved.

I know you are working on improving the Grails site and documentation
and I applaud your efforts, but it would be great if SpringSource
could sponsor a focused effort to improve the usability of the web
site and present the information in a more friendly way (in terms of
UX, not just visual design).

Ken

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Peter Ledbrook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.
>
> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

rlovtangen
In reply to this post by Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
I got into Grails because I was already into Groovy. I got into Groovy because I attended two very good presentations by Scott Davis at JavaZone 2008:

I have been lucky enough to work for a customer where we got the trust and responsibility to choose the right frameworks, as long as it runs on Tomcat.
So Scotts two presentations are now "responsible" for 6 projects running Groovy, 3 of them using Grails and 1 using Griffon :)

Speaking of JavaZone; the call for paper is now out, see http://javazone.no
The conference is taking place in Oslo, Norway, on September 7th-8th 2011.
It's a great community driven conference, sold out every year (~2400 attendees).
Last year there was quite much focus on Scala. Hope to see the same focus on Gr8 technologies this year. 
On the weekend after, there's also a JourneyZone, where speakers are invited to explore the Norwegian nature together with other speakers. Don't miss out on that :)

Thanks, 
Ronny


On Feb 2, 2011, at 1:09 PM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima wrote:

     Hi, everybody.

     I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

     What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

     I'm just wondering...

     Best regards,

             Daniel.

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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
In reply to this post by bdrhoa
Ok - I just got my first screen cast done.  

http://jts-blog.com/?p=7748

Hopefully the first in a series to come.  Let me know what you think!
JT
jts-blog.com
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Re: Grails adoption

mickdavis
Very nice John!  I'm looking forward to the rest of them. 

One thing, the volume was pretty low.  I had to have all of my volume controls all the way up and then it was still quiet with headphones on.

Mick

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 2:24 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok - I just got my first screen cast done.

http://jts-blog.com/?p=7748

Hopefully the first in a series to come.  Let me know what you think!

-----
JT
jts-blog.com
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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
Thanks Mick. I'll look into adjusting the volume. Gotta be a way; just need to figure out how!

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Feb 6, 2011, at 3:38 PM, "Mick Davis [via Grails]"<[hidden email]> wrote:

Very nice John!  I'm looking forward to the rest of them. 

One thing, the volume was pretty low.  I had to have all of my volume controls all the way up and then it was still quiet with headphones on.

Mick

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 2:24 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok - I just got my first screen cast done.

http://jts-blog.com/?p=7748

Hopefully the first in a series to come.  Let me know what you think!

-----
JT
jts-blog.com
--
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Re: Grails adoption

Mauro
In reply to this post by John Thompson
On 6 February 2011 19:24, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ok - I just got my first screen cast done.
>
> http://jts-blog.com/?p=7748
>
> Hopefully the first in a series to come.  Let me know what you think!

Sorry for my ignorance, what tools have you used to make the video?

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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
I used screenflow:  http://www.telestream.net/screen-flow/overview.htm & keynote for the slides

On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Mauro-4 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 6 February 2011 19:24, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Ok - I just got my first screen cast done.
>
> http://jts-blog.com/?p=7748
>
> Hopefully the first in a series to come.  Let me know what you think!

Sorry for my ignorance, what tools have you used to make the video?

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Re: Grails adoption

Mauro
On 6 February 2011 21:22, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I used screenflow:  http://www.telestream.net/screen-flow/overview.htm &
> keynote for the slides
>
> On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Mauro-4 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 6 February 2011 19:24, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Ok - I just got my first screen cast done.
>> >
>> > http://jts-blog.com/?p=7748
>> >
>> > Hopefully the first in a series to come.  Let me know what you think!
>>
>> Sorry for my ignorance, what tools have you used to make the video?
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
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>> below:
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>
> JT
> jts-blog.com

If I want to create a video like your what tools do I have to use?

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Re: Grails adoption

cats
In reply to this post by mickdavis
Agree with what Mick said. Looking forward to the next installment,

Cheers!
Rob

Mick Davis wrote
Very nice John!  I'm looking forward to the rest of them.

One thing, the volume was pretty low.  I had to have all of my volume
controls all the way up and then it was still quiet with headphones on.

Mick
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Re: Grails adoption

gauravchauhan
Nice effort John. Looking forward to next video.

Regards
Gaurav Chauhan
Mobile: +91-88803-97337



On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 4:19 AM, cats <[hidden email]> wrote:

Agree with what Mick said. Looking forward to the next installment,

Cheers!
Rob


Mick Davis wrote:
>
> Very nice John!  I'm looking forward to the rest of them.
>
> One thing, the volume was pretty low.  I had to have all of my volume
> controls all the way up and then it was still quiet with headphones on.
>
> Mick
>
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

pledbrook
In reply to this post by Scott6666
> I looked and saw an edit button.  On the login page there is a register link
> but it doesn't seem to do anything.  Inspecting the code seems to show some
> kind of Ajax Updater.  I tried entering in name and password and then
> registering but nothing seems to happen.
> Registration to the wiki is either broken or not user friendly.

This was indeed broken, but should be fixed now.

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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Grails routing plugin and scheduling

Craig Donovan
In reply to this post by Björn Wilmsmann-2
We are currently using the routing plugin to monitor a ftp folder, but would ideally like to restrict the polling to only occur between a set time frame.  It looks like the newest version of Camel supports scheduling.  Does anyone know when a version of routing will be out w/ support for Camel 2.6?  Or has anyone been able to achieve scheduling via some other mechanism w/ the current routing?

Thanks

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Re: Grails adoption

erturne
In reply to this post by John Thompson
John,

I can barely hear the audio. 3x louder would probably be about right!
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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
Try this version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYu5ZBL16zU

re-do via Final Cut Express.  (Took for friggen ever to upload to youtube)

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 9:38 PM, erturne [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
John,

I can barely hear the audio. 3x louder would probably be about right!



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Re: Grails adoption

Roberto Guerra
Great work john. Looking forward for the next installment.

There are also a number of videos on infoQ from past spring conferences. Maybe it would also be a good idea if all videos from previous conferences be posted on the grails website, or at lest a link placed there.

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:48 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Try this version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYu5ZBL16zU

re-do via Final Cut Express.  (Took for friggen ever to upload to youtube)

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 9:38 PM, erturne [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
John,

I can barely hear the audio. 3x louder would probably be about right!



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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Re: Grails adoption

Mengu
I have collected some of the Groovy & Grails videos around the web. http://www.mengu.net/post/groovy-and-grails-video-compilation I believe they can be added to the Grails web site.

2011/2/8 Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]>
Great work john. Looking forward for the next installment.

There are also a number of videos on infoQ from past spring conferences. Maybe it would also be a good idea if all videos from previous conferences be posted on the grails website, or at lest a link placed there.


On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:48 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Try this version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYu5ZBL16zU

re-do via Final Cut Express.  (Took for friggen ever to upload to youtube)

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 9:38 PM, erturne [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
John,

I can barely hear the audio. 3x louder would probably be about right!



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:
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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
In reply to this post by Roberto Guerra
Thanks Roberto!

FYI - there is a community page here:  http://grails.org/Grails+Screencasts

On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 7:29 AM, Roberto Guerra [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Great work john. Looking forward for the next installment.

There are also a number of videos on infoQ from past spring conferences. Maybe it would also be a good idea if all videos from previous conferences be posted on the grails website, or at lest a link placed there.

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:48 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Try this version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYu5ZBL16zU

re-do via Final Cut Express.  (Took for friggen ever to upload to youtube)

On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 9:38 PM, erturne [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
John,

I can barely hear the audio. 3x louder would probably be about right!



If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion below:



View this message in context: Re: Grails adoption

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