Grails adoption

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Re: Grails adoption

Sébastien Blanc
Really great thread as I like on this list !

We could also mention Burt's posts "This week in Grails" that shows that Grails jobs' offer seems to grow :

Our strength is the community backed up by a big company, SpringSource/VMWare. These two elements are the key factors to make Grails a success and I really believe in it.

my 2 cents again
Seb


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:18 PM, Daniel Glauser <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is a good conversation.

In the Denver market I've noticed a definite increase it the amount of Grails jobs.  Also at one of the DJUG meetings about six months ago around 2/3 of the 50+ attendees were using Groovy at their jobs.  Of course, the folks that go to Java User Group meetings are the kind of folks that generally see the value in something like Groovy and Grails but it was nice to see.

I spend *a lot* of time defending Groovy and Grails in the workplace.  Things from, "we should be doing core Java" to "I think Grails is better suited for one off projects, not enterprise ecosystems."  That last one was fun, I showed how Grails was the best choice for enterprise ecosystems since you can easily drop in Spring beans, pull a JAR from a Maven repository or roll your own plugins, providing uniformity across your projects.  

I spend a lot of time educating and fighting misconceptions.  There are a lot of Java devs who are complacent in what they know and don't see a lot of value in looking past that.  The way I typically get Grails in is by showing management we can get the job done faster and cheaper.  Recently I walked my director (a former developer) through the code of one of our apps.  He was sold once I got to the dynamic finders.

Another great sell for Grails has been working with offshore.  I don't have to tell them where to put things and enforce a project structure, the framework does that for me.  Since the cost of communication is so high with offshore developers anything you don't have to communicate is a net win.

Cheers,
Daniel


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Erik Pragt <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2 feb 2011, at 16:15, Martijn Vos wrote:



On 2/2/11 1:50 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:

In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
closely and using it for a start-up.

2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
    Hi, everybody.

    I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

    What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

    I'm just wondering...


I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A little
increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.

My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.

Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the user
base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the market
share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.

Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?

No stats, but an anecdote: over the past year, we worked on a pretty big
project in Grails that was part of a much bigger project that definitely
counts as enterprise. Our part was only the web front-end for the entire
thing, talking to the other parts through SOAP.

Hmm, I might have heard of this project of yours ;-)


If you need a web front-end for your enterprisey stuff, I don't see why
Grails would be a worse choice than any of the hundreds of Java web
frameworks.

Of course the real issue for any big enterprise project is finding
programmers willing to do it, so sticking to the biggest Java framworks
has its advantages there.

That's certainly true. Finding good Grails programmers is one of our biggest challenges. Luckily it's based on Java, and usually, within some weeks people are quite productive. IMO, it also helps if you've got a more university background, since a lot of university students have encountered things like functional programming, making Groovy even easier to learn.

Erik



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Re: Grails adoption

Scott6666
In reply to this post by Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
I agree with the opinion is that Grails is not growing as fast as it should be.  Maybe my circumstances will be somewhat instructive.

I am an "almost developer" of Grails.  I've been in this state for 1.5 to 2 years now.  I'm interested, stay (somewhat) up to date on it, but still have not committed a project to it.

We own 5 companies and would count ourselves in the medium business size.  We have projects in PHP and Java 1.5/1.6.  Our PHP was started about 6 years ago is not framework based.  Our Java uses a light framework from Bear Bibeault called FrontMan.  We've looked at PHP frameworks but never found one we liked.  We've never found an ORM that's been worth the trouble (includes Hibernate).  We looked at Rails but did not consider it to be scalable enough and were not impressed with the stories of how well it worked at Twitter.  We're old developers.  50 or so now.  Have worked at big companies (like MCI) and smaller internet companies (like Verisign).

On paper, Grails has the feature specs we need.  So, why aren't we in?

1) It always seems to be a release or two away from being stable.  Maybe we're on the lists too much and see the bugs that will be fixed next time and each time the bugs seem significant enough to give us pause.

2) There is no real confidence that it scales.  If it does scale we're hard pressed to find clear examples on how to take various scalability jumps.  Telling us the underpinnings from SpringSource are scalable don't help because if we had the time to learn all of those technologies we would not need the easy Grails route.  Show some examples of distributed loads and databases, etc.

3) GORM Gotchas - Seems like Gorm is a little freaky.  Anything that has slide packs running around with the Gotchas makes it automatically suspect.  Gorm seems to be most freaky in the associations parts.  The two forms of hasmany; the can use belongsto but don't have to use it are all kind of confusing.  Do you save your associated table first or will it save automatically?  Why does delete seem to be so hard when you have associations?  Why is the default to have null entries cause a silent fail so nothing seems wrong but nothing still is in the database?  Why is the N+1 problem prevalent by default?

4) The doc is extensive but the examples haven't changed in years.  If you understood them the first time, great.  If not or if something happens that does not match the doc there's nothing to refer to.  Nose and Face don't cut it when trying to understand why you have a Gorm Gotcha.

5) There are not enough discussion (really any at all) on how to mix this in with an existing Java project, if that's even possible.  It would be great if we could slip some Groovy controllers into our existing Java apps to see how it all works.  Perhaps our more junior programmers or more technical product managers could knock out some demos in Groovy that could be planned to be converted to Java later.  The hope is that our senior programmers would see that it just works and they would decide later they don't have to convert it at all and might even start using it.

6) The tutorial examples are a mess.  It's just a list of try this and try that.  Not a clear path of increasing sophistication for people who want to learn.

7)  We'd miss our compilers a bit.  We like scripts but we also like being warned that something basic (like a typo) is screwed up.  We're digging our Java generics right now.

8) Stackdumps - Any simple error gives you a pile of crap.  Java in general perhaps but much more than a PHP programmer wants to endure.

It seems that once you get it, you love it and stay with it.  It also seems like there are a relatively small set of roadblocks that make newbies frustrated enough to give up after a while.

I know on the mailing lists that it's hard to get simple / newbie help.  There's a lot of people trying to help but it seems to be focused on more sophisticated stuff.  This may be unfair because there are a lot of helpful people on the list but I've seen quite a few simple questions not answered or going round and round until someone just says it's a user error or configuration error.  

I'd also says there's a relative lack of evangelizing relative to Ruby.  There's no training.  Go the SpringSource trianing, select Groovy Grails and get an empty list.  There are no conferences.  Poor Peter seems to be out there alone.  VMWare could spring for some buzz.  Or are they telling us they are not in this for the long haul???  Maybe.

So,

More help for the newbie (fewer gotchas, better doc/tutorials, more help on the lists).

Show us an endgame (a highly scaled app that easy to maintain)

Make some buzz.


On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:09 AM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima wrote:

>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
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> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
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>


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Re: Grails adoption

Ken Roberts (grails)
Sobering:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Clisp%2Cfortran%2Ccobol%2Cforth&l=



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Re: Grails adoption

Finn Herpich-3
In reply to this post by Sébastien Blanc
I've thought about this topic for a while, so two stories about this
topic:

1. We share our little office with a second company which produces
webapps for universities here in Germany. We often talk about what we
do, what we use and why. We also had the talk why they use PHP. The
reason was is pretty simple: they said their apps are hosted at the
universities, because of that they are bound to what exists there and
what the admins allow to use. PHP is always pretty easy in
setup/deployment and exists nearly everywhere.

2. For me the entry into Grails was hard, I've done Java before but all
Webstuff before I wrote in PHP so I had no contact to spring, hibernate
etc. These libs/frameworks are pretty heavy and complex to understand at
first. The change from PHP to Grails was a hard one because of that, the
documentation lacks side-informations and/or good books covering what to
do when an error is thrown, where to search or what happens behind the
stage. We fought our way through reading books and docs about
Hibernate&friends and how they work.
Grails is a wonderful framework once we passed the point to know what
goes on behind its voodoo, but until then it often gave us a hard time
when an error occured.

Cheers
Finn

Am Mittwoch, den 02.02.2011, 23:33 +0100 schrieb Sébastien Blanc:

> Really great thread as I like on this list !
>
> We could also mention Burt's posts "This week in Grails" that shows
> that Grails jobs' offer seems to grow :
> http://burtbeckwith.com/blog/?p=540
>
>
> Our strength is the community backed up by a big company,
> SpringSource/VMWare. These two elements are the key factors to make
> Grails a success and I really believe in it.
>
>
> my 2 cents again
> Seb
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 11:18 PM, Daniel Glauser <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>         This is a good conversation.
>        
>        
>         In the Denver market I've noticed a definite increase it the
>         amount of Grails jobs.  Also at one of the DJUG meetings about
>         six months ago around 2/3 of the 50+ attendees were using
>         Groovy at their jobs.  Of course, the folks that go to Java
>         User Group meetings are the kind of folks that generally see
>         the value in something like Groovy and Grails but it was nice
>         to see.
>        
>        
>         I spend *a lot* of time defending Groovy and Grails in the
>         workplace.  Things from, "we should be doing core Java" to "I
>         think Grails is better suited for one off projects, not
>         enterprise ecosystems."  That last one was fun, I showed how
>         Grails was the best choice for enterprise ecosystems since you
>         can easily drop in Spring beans, pull a JAR from a Maven
>         repository or roll your own plugins, providing uniformity
>         across your projects.  
>        
>        
>         I spend a lot of time educating and fighting misconceptions.
>          There are a lot of Java devs who are complacent in what they
>         know and don't see a lot of value in looking past that.  The
>         way I typically get Grails in is by showing management we can
>         get the job done faster and cheaper.  Recently I walked my
>         director (a former developer) through the code of one of our
>         apps.  He was sold once I got to the dynamic finders.
>        
>        
>         Another great sell for Grails has been working with offshore.
>          I don't have to tell them where to put things and enforce a
>         project structure, the framework does that for me.  Since the
>         cost of communication is so high with offshore developers
>         anything you don't have to communicate is a net win.
>        
>        
>         Cheers,
>         Daniel
>        
>        
>        
>        
>         On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Erik Pragt
>         <[hidden email]> wrote:
>                
>                
>                 On 2 feb 2011, at 16:15, Martijn Vos wrote:
>                
>                 >
>                 >
>                 > On 2/2/11 1:50 PM, "Marc Palmer"
>                 > <[hidden email]> wrote:
>                 >
>                 > >
>                 > > On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>                 > >
>                 > > > In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both
>                 > > > in code base and
>                 > > > usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then
>                 > > > I'm watching it very
>                 > > > closely and using it for a start-up.
>                 > > >
>                 > > > 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
>                 > > > <[hidden email]>
>                 > > >     Hi, everybody.
>                 > > >
>                 > > >     I believe others have asked the following
>                 > > > questions before, but i'm
>                 > > > looking for new answers:
>                 > > >
>                 > > >     What do you think about Grails adoption
>                 > > > "around the world" (for
>                 > > > corporations and private projects)? Is Grails
>                 > > > usage growing? Why not?
>                 > > > What is holding back Grails?
>                 > > >
>                 > > >     I'm just wondering...
>                 > > >
>                 > >
>                 > > I have to say that at least sitting here in the
>                 > > Grails shack I'm not
>                 > > seeing much in the way of increased job traffic
>                 > > for Grails work. A little
>                 > > increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>                 > >
>                 > > My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is:
>                 > > Enterprise still won't
>                 > > touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>                 > >
>                 > > Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for
>                 > > years. I believe the user
>                 > > base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm
>                 > > not convinced the market
>                 > > share growth is stellar in commercial environments
>                 > > yet.
>                 > >
>                 > > Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>                 >
>                 > No stats, but an anecdote: over the past year, we
>                 > worked on a pretty big
>                 > project in Grails that was part of a much bigger
>                 > project that definitely
>                 > counts as enterprise. Our part was only the web
>                 > front-end for the entire
>                 > thing, talking to the other parts through SOAP.
>                 >
>                
>                
>                 Hmm, I might have heard of this project of yours ;-)
>                
>                
>                
>                 > If you need a web front-end for your enterprisey
>                 > stuff, I don't see why
>                 > Grails would be a worse choice than any of the
>                 > hundreds of Java web
>                 > frameworks.
>                 >
>                 > Of course the real issue for any big enterprise
>                 > project is finding
>                 > programmers willing to do it, so sticking to the
>                 > biggest Java framworks
>                 > has its advantages there.
>                 >
>                
>                
>                 That's certainly true. Finding good Grails programmers
>                 is one of our biggest challenges. Luckily it's based
>                 on Java, and usually, within some weeks people are
>                 quite productive. IMO, it also helps if you've got a
>                 more university background, since a lot of university
>                 students have encountered things like functional
>                 programming, making Groovy even easier to learn.
>                
>                
>                 Erik
>                
>                
>        
>        
>
>



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Re: Grails adoption

Daniel Honig
In reply to this post by Ken Roberts (grails)
I'm not sure comparing grails and forth means something to me. I'd never write a web app in forth. But I might write a scientific app in grails.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 2, 2011, at 6:15 PM, Ken Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Sobering:
>
> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Clisp%2Cfortran%2Ccobol%2Cforth&l=
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
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>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

Müller, Wolfgang
In reply to this post by Scott6666
Hi, 
in a way my state is similar, however, I only share some of your opinion but STRONGLY agree on some points. Let's see if commenting on your points leads to anything interesting.

On paper, Grails has the feature specs we need.  So, why aren't we in?

1) It always seems to be a release or two away from being stable.  Maybe we're on the lists too much and see the bugs that will be fixed next time and each time the bugs seem significant enough to give us pause.


I agree with this. Using the latest stable release sometimes *has* big regressions. So far, no-one has worked out a way how to contribute testing in a simple manner that would not mean full participation in the devel cycle, but still give more stability.
 
2) There is no real confidence that it scales.  If it does scale we're hard pressed to find clear examples on ho
 
w to take various scalability jumps.  Telling us the underpinnings from SpringSource are scalable don't help because if we had the time to learn all of those technologies we would not need the easy Grails route.  Show some examples of distributed loads and databases, etc.

While I have that confidence, examples would be nice. Nosy question: Do you get such examples from the PHP community?
 
3) GORM Gotchas - Seems like Gorm is a little freaky.  Anything that has slide packs running around with the Gotchas makes it automatically suspect.  Gorm seems to be most freaky in the associations parts.  The two forms of hasmany; the can use belongsto but don't have to use it are all kind of confusing.  Do you save your associated table first or will it save automatically?  Why does delete seem to be so hard when you have associations?  Why is the default to have null entries cause a silent fail so nothing seems wrong but nothing still is in the database?  Why is the N+1 problem prevalent by default?

Yes, I know some people who cursed a lot when starting out with grails. But I do think that parts of it is owed to Convention over Config.
 
4) The doc is extensive but the examples haven't changed in years.  If you understood them the first time, great.  If not or if something happens that does not match the doc there's nothing to refer to.  Nose and Face don't cut it when trying to understand why you have a Gorm Gotcha.
I had a great experience here with breaking down a problem to something small and posting it to the list.
 
5) There are not enough discussion (really any at all) on how to mix this in with an existing Java project, if that's even possible.  It would be great if we could slip some Groovy controllers into our existing Java apps to see how it all works.  Perhaps our more junior programmers or more technical product managers could knock out some demos in Groovy that could be planned to be converted to Java later.  The hope is that our senior programmers would see that it just works and they would decide later they don't have to convert it at all and might even start using it.

This actually is the point where I strongly agree. This is something we're looking into, maybe colleagues of mine can report on that in a couple of months.
 
6) The tutorial examples are a mess.  It's just a list of try this and try that.  Not a clear path of increasing sophistication for people who want to learn.

Yes, lack of people. What I find worse is that it is sometimes very hard to find out what is current and what not. Taking legacy stuff offline or making more clear that it's deprecated might help there. This also goes for the plugins. 
 
7)  We'd miss our compilers a bit.  We like scripts but we also like being warned that something basic (like a typo) is screwed up.  We're digging our Java generics right now.

There was some GroovyLint, right? Someone has a link?
 
8) Stackdumps - Any simple error gives you a pile of crap.  Java in general perhaps but much more than a PHP programmer wants to endure.

Well, millions of JAVA coders are happy with that :-D.
 
It seems that once you get it, you love it and stay with it.  It also seems like there are a relatively small set of roadblocks that make newbies frustrated enough to give up after a while.

Yes, fully agree.
 
I know on the mailing lists that it's hard to get simple / newbie help.  There's a lot of people trying to help but it seems to be focused on more sophisticated stuff.
Well, I consider myself an almost newbie in Grails (with lots of other experience), and there *are* some questions where you do not have the impression that people have actually tried to solve the problem themselves. I am rather surprised that Graeme and others answer so many questions.  
 
 This may be unfair because there are a lot of helpful people on the list but I've seen quite a few simple questions not answered or going round and round until someone just says it's a user error or configuration error.

I'd also says there's a relative lack of evangelizing relative to Ruby.  There's no training.  Go the SpringSource trianing, select Groovy Grails and get an empty list.  There are no conferences.  Poor Peter seems to be out there alone.  VMWare could spring for some buzz.  Or are they telling us they are not in this for the long haul???  Maybe.
this "maybe" is what many are afraid of. 

 
So,

More help for the newbie (fewer gotchas, better doc/tutorials, more help on the lists).

Show us an endgame (a highly scaled app that easy to maintain)

This would indeed be interesting. Again the question: Are ruby/PHP endgames out there?

Cheers,
Wolfgang 
Make some buzz.


On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:09 AM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima wrote:

>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>


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Re: Grails adoption

Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
In reply to this post by Ken Roberts (grails)
        Ok. I'll try to write just a few paragraphs (but i can't help myself :-P).

        I'm a Java's dinosaur. I've jumped from C/C++ to Java at 1998 (JDK
1.1.8/1.2.2) and i'm stuck with it until now. At that time we've used
servlet containers/app servers like JRun, JServ and Weblogic 5.1...
        I'm one of the most conservative and stubborn guy that i know. Until a
few months ago i refused to use Hibernate and Spring Framework in any
projects under my care. I still do. For me, their usage is only
justified because of Groovy and Grails: Because it's easier to write a
Grails Domain Class than any EJB Entity Bean/JPA Entity/Hibernate
Entity; It's easier to use a Grails Transactional Service than to
declare a lot of Spring Beans; And both tools (Hibernate and Spring)
start to seem more appealing if you can write less code to use them.
        My first contact with Groovy/Grails had happened because a friend of
mine is a Ruby/Rails enthusiast and i refused to learn *another*
complete different language/framework :-|

        Well, in my short journey until now, i've cursed Groovy and Grails some
times, but i've done the same for Hibernate, Spring, Java, C and etc
before. What can i say? I'm used to complain too much sometimes.

        Now, some of my beliefs are:

        1. Groovy/Grails have steep learning curve for non-Java programmers;
        2. Ruby/Rails are more viable choice for replace PHP codebase instead
of Java/JEE codebase (at least inside big companies);
        3. Groovy/Grails seem to be (or could to become) more viable choice for
replace Java/JEE codebase inside big companies. For particular projects
and inside small companies Groovy/Grails are options for programmers
with Java background knowledge.


        Just my 2 cents for now.

        Best regards,

                Daniel.



       

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Re: Grails adoption

Scott6666
In reply to this post by Müller, Wolfgang
When I speak of scaling, I'm largely comparing a Java solution to a Grails solution.

Still, there seem to be lots of sites with PHP (even Facebook).  So at this point you don't get fired for trying PHP.  You would for Grails if it did not scale.  You're also likely not using a framework if you're on PHP but gluing some distributed stuff via your own backend.  I don't think the PHP frameworks provide a lot of scaling help/proof which is why I don't think they are actively adopted either.

You might get fired if you try Ruby On Rails and it doesn't scale.  You should given what Twitter went through (unless Rails 3 is now very different because of the Twitter experience, I don't know).  That's why I'm not sure what all those start-ups are doing ROR.  Except a VC does not fire you for being trendy; makes it easier to sell you off to someone.

PS I truly applaud Graeme for personally helping on the list.  I do think that he's too close to it to understand what it all looks like to a newbie now.



On Feb 2, 2011, at 7:30 PM, Müller, Wolfgang wrote:

While I have that confidence, examples would be nice. Nosy question: Do you get such examples from the PHP community?
 
This would indeed be interesting. Again the question: Are ruby/PHP endgames out there?


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RE: Grails adoption

netwiser
In reply to this post by Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
I started Java work since 1998, also had looked into lot of other languages, such as PHP, Ruby, JRuby, Python, JPython, but when I found Grails, ( at that moment she was Groovy on Rail), I fall in love with her. 

Unfortunately, I tried to push Groovy and Grails into day time job, mainly I am a consultant working for government. Government likes to use heavy ecosystem such as IBM WebSphere ( one of the most failure product in the world). 2 and half year ago, I had successfully convinced the project team to try Groovy and Grails after I demoed cool features of Grails to them. However,  I had a very hard time tried to create and manage the Grails project in RAD (different code structure), could not let the RAD to understand Groovy code ( no Groovy plugin for that old RAD IDE) ,  could not compile/debug in WebSphere ( class loading error, no web.xml, etc), could not deploy to WebSphere (class loader conflict).  I tried to ask for help, but what frustrated me was some threads in the blog/mail showed that Grails was not intend to support WebSphere at that moment (Couple of arguments regarding Maven integration, WebSphere integration, etc). After struggling one month or two, I had to give up Grails on WebSphere and lost the chance to deploy first Grails project in government ( the policy is getting more restricted). 

However, I am continually using Grails a lot in my spare time for my own projects, I have developed 3 sites live serving 100 - 3000 users all by my own. If I was using core Java, absolutely I can't make it.  The downside is a simple typo can still screw me up for hours ( what a shame).

I am wishing and hoping I could push Grails to WebSphere in Government/Big companies ecosystem, and hope this day can come early.

Regards,

James

> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 17:23:45 +0000
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [grails-user] Grails adoption
>
> >      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> > looking for new answers:
> >
> >      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> > corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> > What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.
>
> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
> http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
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Re: Grails adoption

Dean Del Ponte-2
My first hand experience is that Grails adoption is growing and job trends support that.

The biggest pushback I get from it is it's a dynamic language and "does it scale".  How many transactions a second can it process, etc.

Regardless of this, I'm now in a position where I decide what technology we use and all new apps are developed in Grails.

I feel it's the most productive and powerful framework available on the JVM.  It scales well and the plugin ecosystem blows everything else away.

I can't imagine writing new webapps without it.


Dean Del Ponte

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 9:17 PM, James Zhang <[hidden email]> wrote:
I started Java work since 1998, also had looked into lot of other languages, such as PHP, Ruby, JRuby, Python, JPython, but when I found Grails, ( at that moment she was Groovy on Rail), I fall in love with her. 

Unfortunately, I tried to push Groovy and Grails into day time job, mainly I am a consultant working for government. Government likes to use heavy ecosystem such as IBM WebSphere ( one of the most failure product in the world). 2 and half year ago, I had successfully convinced the project team to try Groovy and Grails after I demoed cool features of Grails to them. However,  I had a very hard time tried to create and manage the Grails project in RAD (different code structure), could not let the RAD to understand Groovy code ( no Groovy plugin for that old RAD IDE) ,  could not compile/debug in WebSphere ( class loading error, no web.xml, etc), could not deploy to WebSphere (class loader conflict).  I tried to ask for help, but what frustrated me was some threads in the blog/mail showed that Grails was not intend to support WebSphere at that moment (Couple of arguments regarding Maven integration, WebSphere integration, etc). After struggling one month or two, I had to give up Grails on WebSphere and lost the chance to deploy first Grails project in government ( the policy is getting more restricted). 

However, I am continually using Grails a lot in my spare time for my own projects, I have developed 3 sites live serving 100 - 3000 users all by my own. If I was using core Java, absolutely I can't make it.  The downside is a simple typo can still screw me up for hours ( what a shame).

I am wishing and hoping I could push Grails to WebSphere in Government/Big companies ecosystem, and hope this day can come early.

Regards,

James

> Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 17:23:45 +0000
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [grails-user] Grails adoption

>
> >      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> > looking for new answers:
> >
> >      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> > corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> > What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.
>
> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.
>

> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
> http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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RE: Grails adoption

wwwclaes
Is it silly to think that a really really cool website could boost adoption?

If first came to grails.org a few years ago, I had been instructed to build
a rapid inventory application and I knew the customer was using a lot
of Java.

Back then, the site probably looked different. I browsed what Grails
had to offer and looked at a screencast about scaffolding ending up
believing that the default scaffolding was about all that Grails could
be made to do. I ended up using the OpenXava framework that time,
only to really rediscover Grails about a year ago.

Most people are always short of time. I think the front page of grails.org
could need a clearer path to follow to get Grails explained with all its
benefits.

I also think Grails suffers from having some really nice open-source
applications that showcase what can be done and how it has been
done.

Here's my point. If the Grails community somehow could gather
its forces, work together to make an uber-cool Web 2.0 grails.org,
we would get both the interest of newcomers and the sample for
the best practices. This could then be extended by making
the tutorials about how different parts of grails.org was built etc...

Grails is a great framework with great people and some really strong
arguments to why it should be used. I think it could do with some
more bright & shiny bragging and boasting :-)

/Claes
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RE: Grails adoption

Finn Herpich-3
"cool webseite"

I remember a talk at last FrOSCon by Scott Macvicar (one of the Facebook
developers, can be found at [1]).
At the beginning he explained why they use PHP instead of Java or
something else which was basically that it is easier for them to find
smart people and teach them PHP in a very small amount of time.

Cheers

[1]
http://ftp-b.stw-bonn.de/froscon/2010/hs12/theora/hs12_-_2010-08-22_15:15_-_en_-_hiphop_for_php_-_scott_macvicar.ogv

Am Donnerstag, den 03.02.2011, 09:08 +0100 schrieb Claes Svensson:

> Is it silly to think that a really really cool website could boost
> adoption?
>
> If first came to grails.org a few years ago, I had been instructed to
> build
> a rapid inventory application and I knew the customer was using a lot
> of Java.
>
> Back then, the site probably looked different. I browsed what Grails
> had to offer and looked at a screencast about scaffolding ending up
> believing that the default scaffolding was about all that Grails could
> be made to do. I ended up using the OpenXava framework that time,
> only to really rediscover Grails about a year ago.
>
> Most people are always short of time. I think the front page of
> grails.org
> could need a clearer path to follow to get Grails explained with all
> its
> benefits.
>
> I also think Grails suffers from having some really nice open-source
> applications that showcase what can be done and how it has been
> done.
>
> Here's my point. If the Grails community somehow could gather
> its forces, work together to make an uber-cool Web 2.0 grails.org,
> we would get both the interest of newcomers and the sample for
> the best practices. This could then be extended by making
> the tutorials about how different parts of grails.org was built etc...
>
> Grails is a great framework with great people and some really strong
> arguments to why it should be used. I think it could do with some
> more bright & shiny bragging and boasting :-)
>
> /Claes



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Re: Grails adoption

John Fletcher-3
In reply to this post by Scott6666
Scott that is quite an interesting and well thought out email. Here are a couple of comments:

2011/2/3 Scott Eisenberg
1) It always seems to be a release or two away from being stable.  Maybe we're on the lists too much and see the bugs that will be fixed next time and each time the bugs seem significant enough to give us pause.
I know what you mean and I do believe it is still there to an extent, though I'm finding it lessening in comparison to when I first started with Grails (1.1 moving to 1.2). There were suggestions on this list I think to solve this with a stable/unstable release system like "every odd release is unstable", but I guess it didn't catch on. Another recent development is the shorter release cycle, at first I thought "oh no, more dangerous upgrades" but so far for me the experience has actually been better. Another idea I suppose would be something like the Ubuntu idea of long-term and short-term releases, like the 1.2 branch has been long-term maybe the 1.3 branch is short-term and gets abandoned when 1.4 is released. Doesn't in itself solve the problem but anyway, an interesting idea.
 
3) GORM Gotchas - Seems like Gorm is a little freaky.  Anything that has slide packs running around with the Gotchas makes it automatically suspect.  Gorm seems to be most freaky in the associations parts.  The two forms of hasmany; the can use belongsto but don't have to use it are all kind of confusing.
 
Hahaha yeah the user guide section on many-to-one is extremely short considering these things. "Can put square brackets or not and has different meaning..." that is rather confusing...
 
Why is the default to have null entries cause a silent fail so nothing seems wrong but nothing still is in the database?
 
I think the answer is "Rails inspiration", and convenience for people that really know what they're doing (you can do "if book.save() {...}"). I think it is illogical and there was a long discussion about how to improve this aspect of GORM for 1.4, I think eventually tending towards an additional save-like method being added like "store()". But the thread dried up without anyone stating that they had taken action so I don't know if any changes have actually been committed.
 
4) The doc is extensive but the examples haven't changed in years.  If you understood them the first time, great.  If not or if something happens that does not match the doc there's nothing to refer to.  Nose and Face don't cut it when trying to understand why you have a Gorm Gotcha.
I find it great that the same sensible examples are used throughout the doco, nose/face, book/author, flight/airport. But as said, I agree there could be more examples.
 
6) The tutorial examples are a mess.  It's just a list of try this and try that.  Not a clear path of increasing sophistication for people who want to learn.
Yeah check out http://railstutorial.org/ruby-on-rails-tutorial-book - this is an unbelievably good free intensive tutorial for Rails which is basically exactly what you are looking for (except you want it for Grails, obviously). You're supposed to be able to complete it having never programmed before, or being a seasoned developer. Some high-quality resources like this would be nice for Grails. I guess all it's got something to do with critical mass/numbers causing someone to find it worthwhile to invest their time in.
 
I know on the mailing lists that it's hard to get simple / newbie help.  There's a lot of people trying to help but it seems to be focused on more sophisticated stuff.  This may be unfair because there are a lot of helpful people on the list but I've seen quite a few simple questions not answered or going round and round until someone just says it's a user error or configuration error.
As a generalised (not specific to Grails) comment, I find Stackoverflow is pretty good for newbie stuff. Since every question is worth the same, people trying to improve their reputation wait for easy newbie questions and answer them within minutes. I find it fantastic the level and depth of help available on the mailing list. Half of the threads go over my head but that's fine. The worst thing with a technology is when you can't find enough people out there who really know what they are talking about to answer your sophisticated question (ever with a technology where due to lack of quality support/resources you got the fear that you're one of the leading experts?); but with Grails I have no fear of that.
 

I'd also says there's a relative lack of evangelizing relative to Ruby.  There's no training.  Go the SpringSource trianing, select Groovy Grails and get an empty list.  There are no conferences.  Poor Peter seems to be out there alone.  VMWare could spring for some buzz.  Or are they telling us they are not in this for the long haul???  Maybe.
What we really need is someone to create a grailscasts.com (if you don't know what I'm talking about see railscasts.com). Someone registered the domain by the way, but anyway just run it up on your own original domain. The Railscasts site is unbelieveably popular and important in the Rails community. If anyone starts to release regular screencasts please let us know.
 
John
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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
Grailscasts.com interesting thought.

I have a small app I was thinking about setting free to the open source world.  Its a time and expense tracker - nothing too sexy.  I have under 80 hrs invested in it.

But the little app is using Spring Security Core, Spring Security UI, jQuery UI, Blueprint CSS, and I even mixed in some ExtJS components at the end.

I was thinking it might be fun to rip it apart in a blog series or some web casts for beginners.

Thoughts?
JT
jts-blog.com
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Re: Grails adoption

Martijn Vos
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local


On 2/2/11 5:37 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:
>>>
>>>> In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
>>>>usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
>>>>closely and using it for a start-up.
>>>>
>>>> 2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
>>>>      Hi, everybody.
>>>>
>>>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but
>>>>i'm
>>>> looking for new answers:
>>>>
>>>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>>>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>>>> What is holding back Grails?
>>>>
>>>>      I'm just wondering...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
>>>seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A
>>>little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.
>>>
>>> My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
>>>touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.
>>>
>>> Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the
>>>user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the
>>>market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.
>>>
>>> Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?
>>
>>
>>
>> Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
>> http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails
>>
>> Take from that what you will
>
>Not bad, but compare:
>
>http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=

I was hoping that by now, PHP would be losing ground to Ruby, Groovy and
Python. Or holding it's own. But it just keeps growing.

Here's the graph with all languages rather than framworks:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=groovy%2Cruby%2Cscala%2Cphp%2Cpython%2Cja
va&l=

I added Java too, just to put things in perspective.


mcv.

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Re: Grails adoption

Joshua Kehn
You had a bad Java link:


I'm glad that PHP continues to grow, it's a strong language with great community backing. A favorite of many open source projects and application chop shops. Is it the greatest thing since sliced bread? No. Does it have flaws? Yes, but so do most languages.

I'm using Grails much more now then I was same time last year. It's my default go-to language for new projects. 

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 4:56 AM, Martijn Vos wrote:



On 2/2/11 5:37 PM, "Marc Palmer" <[hidden email]> wrote:


On 2 Feb 2011, at 15:33, Graeme Rocher wrote:

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 2 Feb 2011, at 12:36, Mengü Kağan wrote:

In my opinion Grails is constantly growing. Both in code base and
usage. I have met Grails in 2008 and since then I'm watching it very
closely and using it for a start-up.

2011/2/2 Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]>
    Hi, everybody.

    I believe others have asked the following questions before, but
i'm
looking for new answers:

    What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

    I'm just wondering...


I have to say that at least sitting here in the Grails shack I'm not
seeing much in the way of increased job traffic for Grails work. A
little increase over the last 2-3 years, but not much.

My *completely un-scientific* guy feeling is: Enterprise still won't
touch Groovy, and startups still go with Rails.

Of course, I have done nothing but Grails for years. I believe the
user base for Grails is increasing certainly, but I'm not convinced the
market share growth is stellar in commercial environments yet.

Anybody got some useful stats to prove me wrong?



Well Indeed shows the number of jobs trending in the right direction
http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails

Take from that what you will

Not bad, but compare:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2Crails%2Cscala%2Cphp&l=

I was hoping that by now, PHP would be losing ground to Ruby, Groovy and
Python. Or holding it's own. But it just keeps growing.

Here's the graph with all languages rather than framworks:

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=groovy%2Cruby%2Cscala%2Cphp%2Cpython%2Cja
va&l=

I added Java too, just to put things in perspective.


mcv.


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Re: Grails adoption

tomas lin
In reply to this post by Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
I deployed a grails app on EC2 via elastic beanstalk this weekend.  *very* cool.  And very easy.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:27 AM, tomas lin [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>
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Re: Grails adoption

smaldini
In reply to this post by tomas lin
I hope VMforce and BeanStalk are on this way. But deploying online services is not the only role for Grails, Grails is certainly more integrated in enterprise networks because it leverages old java devs or services. I often push Grails without arguing it's a new technology, it's just a Java methodology, it stays Java after all.

Governments or big accounts doesn't demand for a specific JEE framework, they often ask Java btw (and a WAR file for their big Weblogic/JBoss servers). I even had cases where I have refactored some unreadable Struts source to Grails because it took less times than make some evolution to this ton of shit.

Don't forget one of the key forces of our lovely Groovy & Grails : this is Java.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Tomas Lin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
<[hidden email]> wrote:
>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
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Stéphane MALDINI

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Re: Grails adoption

pledbrook
In reply to this post by Scott6666
On grailscasts.com:

This has been suggested before. But, does having a separate site gain
us anything over http://grails.org/Grails+Screencasts? BTW, that
section of the website has now been updated so that you can add
YouTube and Vimeo videos.

On tutorials:

This is one area that I intend to focus on and I definitely want a
stronger path from grails.org home page -> finding out what Grails is
-> a sequence of tutorials building an example application.

On scalability:

What sort of scalability are you after? At the database level?
Middleware? Running lots of servlet containers in a cluster?
Scalability is a complex topic, often with complex solutions. And as I
understand it, the Twitter website is still running on Rails - it was
only the internal messaging that got replaced with a Scala solution.

It's important to identify exactly what people want to know when they
ask the question "does Grails scale?" It's used in sites that get lots
of traffic - does that help?

On learning curve:

Much of the focus of the user guide and tutorials is on Java
developers. That's one area we could definitely improve on. But what
are the main areas that non-Java developers find particularly
difficult?

On conferences:

Spring One 2GX, the GR8 conferences, Spring IO in Madrid, the S2G
Forums, Grails Exchange. So there are some. Spring One 2GX is the
biggest of those.

Regards,

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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