Grails adoption

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Re: Grails adoption

fabien7474
xmly wrote
I think amazon elastic beanstalk is already there...
Didn't know that. That may be a veyr good news.

Is there any real grails application (with Quartz, ehCache...) running on beanstalk  ?
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Re: Grails adoption

xmly
You could deploy war files on it. It will scale up based on the load. But running multiple nodes mean that you have to make the Quartz, ehCache ready for the clustering environments. 


On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 12:34 PM, fabien7474 <[hidden email]> wrote:


xmly wrote:
>
> I think amazon elastic beanstalk is already there...
>
Didn't know that. That may be a veyr good news.

Is there any real grails application (with Quartz, ehCache...) running on
beanstalk  ?
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Re: Grails adoption

fabien7474
xmly wrote
You could deploy war files on it. It will scale up based on the load. But
running multiple nodes mean that you have to make the Quartz, ehCache ready
for the clustering environments.
I'll try this right away. Is there any tutorial out there? If not, I might blog a tutorial. At least, it will partly solve one of the requests in this thread by allowing newcomers to have their grails app deployed,  up and running in a matter of minutes, no?
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Re: Grails adoption

Björn Wilmsmann-2
In reply to this post by Peter Bell-5
Most certainly. If you do it right.

However, having tried several Grails-compatible cloud solutions and even worked with one extensively (Mor.ph) I doubt it's possible to offer a Heroku-like experience for Grails.

I've run into all sorts of weird behaviours and undebuggable bugs, mostly related to Hibernate sessions and Quartz jobs. This is made worse by the fact that deploying a new version of a Java app amounts to uploading a WAR each time, so you're basically back in an 80s style 'compile - wait - test - edit - compile again' cycle.

However, if there's anyone interested in exploring such a business opportunity I'd be glad to hear from you nonetheless (because there really is an opportunity to be had and I have quite a few ideas about simplifying app development and deployment).

--
Viele Grüße / Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

Am 03.02.2011 um 17:16 schrieb Peter Bell <[hidden email]>:

But not as easy as "git push heruko master". I'm with Tomas. I'd think there would be a business opportunity there for someone . . .

Best Wishes,
Peter

On Feb 3, 2011, at 5:31 AM, John Thompson wrote:

I deployed a grails app on EC2 via elastic beanstalk this weekend.  *very* cool.  And very easy.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:27 AM, tomas lin [via Grails] <<a href="x-msg://758/user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&amp;node=3257789&amp;i=0" target="_top" rel="nofollow">[hidden email]> wrote:
Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:09 PM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
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Re: Grails adoption

Björn Wilmsmann-2
In reply to this post by Joshua Kehn
Thing is, Rails runs on shared hosting plans, Grails doesn't.

Being able to use a cheap shared hosting plan for a tiny project or for exploring a potential business opportunity can be invaluable.

Getting a dedicated server (and installing the necessary software) for trying out new ideas or starting a business in many cases is both too expensive and too cumbersome.

--
Viele Grüße / Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

Am 03.02.2011 um 17:34 schrieb Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]>:

Really? What makes you say that?

Aside from shared hosting, which I don't consider really hosting, the costs are relatively the same. 

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:32 AM, fabien7474 wrote:


+1. Also Hosting costs are higher with Grails that with Rails or PHP.


tomas lin wrote:

Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting
Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.



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Re: Grails adoption

Joshua Kehn
You could get Grails to run on any shared host that allows Tomcat. Obviously not many do. 

You don't need a dedicated server, you could use any of many available VPS solutions that offer minimal overhead with excellent benefits in terms of ram and CPU.

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Björn Wilmsmann wrote:

Thing is, Rails runs on shared hosting plans, Grails doesn't.

Being able to use a cheap shared hosting plan for a tiny project or for exploring a potential business opportunity can be invaluable.

Getting a dedicated server (and installing the necessary software) for trying out new ideas or starting a business in many cases is both too expensive and too cumbersome.

--
Viele Grüße / Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

Am 03.02.2011 um 17:34 schrieb Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]>:

Really? What makes you say that?

Aside from shared hosting, which I don't consider really hosting, the costs are relatively the same. 

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email][hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:32 AM, fabien7474 wrote:


+1. Also Hosting costs are higher with Grails that with Rails or PHP.


tomas lin wrote:

Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting
Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.



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Re: Grails adoption

Sébastien Blanc
Although hosting is an important aspect, I don't think it's such a key factor for Grails' expansion. Sure it's a problem when you want to host your personal projects or if you are just starting up a new business. But for Java shops, the hosting aspect has already been managed, as finally it will only be a WAR that you will you deploy like all other (old-school JEE)  products that have already been published on your existing hosting structure.
IMO  the focus is to evangelize existing "Java based" companies because Grails relies on professional foundations ...
Seb

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]> wrote:
You could get Grails to run on any shared host that allows Tomcat. Obviously not many do. 

You don't need a dedicated server, you could use any of many available VPS solutions that offer minimal overhead with excellent benefits in terms of ram and CPU.

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Björn Wilmsmann wrote:

Thing is, Rails runs on shared hosting plans, Grails doesn't.

Being able to use a cheap shared hosting plan for a tiny project or for exploring a potential business opportunity can be invaluable.

Getting a dedicated server (and installing the necessary software) for trying out new ideas or starting a business in many cases is both too expensive and too cumbersome.

--
Viele Grüße / Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

Am 03.02.2011 um 17:34 schrieb Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]>:

Really? What makes you say that?

Aside from shared hosting, which I don't consider really hosting, the costs are relatively the same. 

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email][hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:32 AM, fabien7474 wrote:


+1. Also Hosting costs are higher with Grails that with Rails or PHP.


tomas lin wrote:

Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting
Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.



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Re: Grails adoption

Roberto Guerra
+1 to Seb.

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Sébastien Blanc <[hidden email]> wrote:
Although hosting is an important aspect, I don't think it's such a key factor for Grails' expansion. Sure it's a problem when you want to host your personal projects or if you are just starting up a new business. But for Java shops, the hosting aspect has already been managed, as finally it will only be a WAR that you will you deploy like all other (old-school JEE)  products that have already been published on your existing hosting structure.
IMO  the focus is to evangelize existing "Java based" companies because Grails relies on professional foundations ...
Seb

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]> wrote:
You could get Grails to run on any shared host that allows Tomcat. Obviously not many do. 

You don't need a dedicated server, you could use any of many available VPS solutions that offer minimal overhead with excellent benefits in terms of ram and CPU.

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Björn Wilmsmann wrote:

Thing is, Rails runs on shared hosting plans, Grails doesn't.

Being able to use a cheap shared hosting plan for a tiny project or for exploring a potential business opportunity can be invaluable.

Getting a dedicated server (and installing the necessary software) for trying out new ideas or starting a business in many cases is both too expensive and too cumbersome.

--
Viele Grüße / Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

Am 03.02.2011 um 17:34 schrieb Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]>:

Really? What makes you say that?

Aside from shared hosting, which I don't consider really hosting, the costs are relatively the same. 

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email][hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:32 AM, fabien7474 wrote:


+1. Also Hosting costs are higher with Grails that with Rails or PHP.


tomas lin wrote:

Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting
Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.



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Re: Grails adoption

Scott6666
In reply to this post by Sébastien Blanc
I agree.

On Feb 3, 2011, at 3:28 PM, Sébastien Blanc <[hidden email]> wrote:

Although hosting is an important aspect, I don't think it's such a key factor for Grails' expansion. Sure it's a problem when you want to host your personal projects or if you are just starting up a new business. But for Java shops, the hosting aspect has already been managed, as finally it will only be a WAR that you will you deploy like all other (old-school JEE)  products that have already been published on your existing hosting structure.
IMO  the focus is to evangelize existing "Java based" companies because Grails relies on professional foundations ...
Seb

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]> wrote:
You could get Grails to run on any shared host that allows Tomcat. Obviously not many do. 

You don't need a dedicated server, you could use any of many available VPS solutions that offer minimal overhead with excellent benefits in terms of ram and CPU.

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Björn Wilmsmann wrote:

Thing is, Rails runs on shared hosting plans, Grails doesn't.

Being able to use a cheap shared hosting plan for a tiny project or for exploring a potential business opportunity can be invaluable.

Getting a dedicated server (and installing the necessary software) for trying out new ideas or starting a business in many cases is both too expensive and too cumbersome.

--
Viele Grüße / Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

Am 03.02.2011 um 17:34 schrieb Joshua Kehn <[hidden email]>:

Really? What makes you say that?

Aside from shared hosting, which I don't consider really hosting, the costs are relatively the same. 

Regards,

-Josh
____________________________________
Joshua Kehn | [hidden email][hidden email]
http://joshuakehn.com

On Feb 3, 2011, at 11:32 AM, fabien7474 wrote:


+1. Also Hosting costs are higher with Grails that with Rails or PHP.


tomas lin wrote:

Have you tried finding a place to host your toy grails apps?

In Rails, I push button deploy to Heroku. In Django, they're getting
Djangy.

In Grails, we either have to write our apps for the App Engine or
spend a ton of time getting Amazon set up since Cloud Foundry does not
support the micro instance.

I think there would be more visibility / enthusiasm for grails if
there was a freemium cloud option that did not require spending two or
three whole days setting up a linux VM to do.



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Re: Grails adoption

fabien7474
In reply to this post by Sébastien Blanc
Sébastien Blanc wrote
IMO  the focus is to evangelize existing "Java based" companies because
Grails relies on professional foundations ...
+1. This is very true since Grails is awesome compare to classic Java Full Stack Enterprise application. However compare to Rails, things are a little bit harder according to many posts on this thread
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Re: Grails adoption

ld@ldaley.com
In reply to this post by Müller, Wolfgang

On 03/02/2011, at 10:30 AM, Müller, Wolfgang wrote:

> I agree with this. Using the latest stable release sometimes *has* big regressions. So far, no-one has worked out a way how to contribute testing in a simple manner that would not mean full participation in the devel cycle, but still give more stability.

I tend to agree with you that it is very difficult to contribute tests to the Grails project as it stands. I am interested in specifics if you are able to provide them on what prevented you in your case from contributing tests when you tried.
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Re: Grails adoption

Bill Stephens
In reply to this post by Björn Wilmsmann-2
All,

Background:
I'm a developer who supports (and develops) the caGrid open source, grid computing project that is the middleware of the National Cancer Institute's Biomedical Informatics Grid. I create tutorials, create and present training, maintain documentation and operate the Training Grid. I see a lot of what's wrong with Java enterprise development.

Grails is a skunkworks project for me. I'm trying to provide an alternative to 'enterprise' web application development for cancer researchers.  I haven't heard of anyone else using Grails in the organizations that I deal with.

I've only been working with Grails for 6 weeks but this is what I've found:
  • Coming from a Java middleware/ enterprise perspective, Grails is sexy and I'm loving it. This is some fresh air that I need!
  • I work with teams that are using JBoss and Liferay or some custom solutions to create web applications. I would love to provide something to them that increases their productivity and lets them be involved with new JVM-based technology. Grails may be what I'm looking for.
  • I've been working nights and weekends to create plugins to support dev teams. Perhaps I'm picky, but I find the documentation lacking.  An example is resolving dependencies from an Ivy repository. If your Ivy repo is used exactly like Maven (highly unlikely) it will work. Otherwise, your mailing list posts go unanswered. It took a JIRA ticket to find the undocumented settings.
  • I have 12TB of available hosting capacity at my job so hosting there isn't a problem. It is a problem for the private Grails project that I've been working on.
  • Grails lets me depend on and consume many unsexy Java / SOAP web services in what I consider a very sexy package.
  • I'm hopeful that the community will get enough mass to improve adoption and provide a wealth of community driven documentation. Hopeful, but not convinced.
Bill S.

2011/2/3 Björn Wilmsmann <[hidden email]>
Hi there,

in my opinion the problem is that Grails essentially comes from an 'enterprise' background. This background comes with a lot of cultural baggage and implications.

While Grails certainly is a huge improvement over other Java 'enterprise' frameworks like JSF or Struts it still falls short of matching Rails, which is kind of like the gold standard for web development framework nowadays.

Now, while tying in with existing Java frameworks and 'enterprise' requirements isn't a bad thing, a startup or SME starting a new web app couldn't care less. They'll more often than not choose a tool that gets the job done as quickly and elegantly as possible. From my point of view, Grails still doesn't perform as well as Rails in this respect. To name but a few important issues where Rails easily outperforms Grails:

1.) Startup time: Waiting like 10-30s or more for a web server to start or unit tests to execute is just ridiculous nowadays.
2.) Error messages: Java / Groovy / Grails stack traces are hideous. I don't care about abstract underlying exceptions, Hibernate proxy-somethings and Spring whatnots. When developing web apps I just want to see the exact line in my code that caused the error. Sure, things aren't always as simple as this but this behaviour should be the general case.
2.) Unit testing: In my opinion, unit tests with Grails still require too much boilerplate code.
3.) Helpers: Rails offers much more and richer helper classes that help you accomplishing common tasks in web app development. Yes, for each of these there is a Java equivalent but often these Java equivalents are far from easy to use and require lots of useless code just to get them working in common cases.
4.) Plugins: There are much more and especially more stable plugins for Rails.
5.) Leaky abstractions: This mostly concerns Spring- and GORM-related stuff. Once you run into something that can't be accomplished with Grails right out of the box you have to deal with Hibernate internals. ActiveRecord isn't perfect either but at least you can revert to vanilla SQL, whose behaviour often is much more predictably than HQL.

Certainly, startups arent everything. Most well-paid jobs - especially for Java developers - are in the 'enterprise' segment. However, most of those are far from what's usually considered fun or exciting. Let's face it, crunching numbers for a bank or printing contracts for an insurance company just isn't as sexy as the latest Web 2.0 app.

Apart from hype and 'sexiness', Grails also doesn't seem to have a lot of support in the 'enterprise' crowd. Some people tend to become very religious about static typing (and why it's the one-size-fits-all solution for any problem they can think of) and the biggest non-issue of all time: Scalability (If you're Twitter you have scaling problem, if you're Google you have a scaling problem. However, if you're an insurance company with 10,000 employees chances are you don't have a scaling problem. Even if you do, you should probably worry a lot more about your crappy WebSphere and SAP stuff than about your web development framework).

On 2 February 2011 13:09, Daniel Henrique Alves Limabld <[hidden email]> wrote:
>      Hi, everybody.
>
>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
> looking for new answers:
>
>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
> What is holding back Grails?
>
>      I'm just wondering...
>
>      Best regards,
>
>              Daniel.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>



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Re: Grails adoption

geezenslaw
Hello Bill, FWIW I am using Grails to replace a legacy system that is
around 10 years old. I refrain from describing the legacy system as it
is coyote ugly. I have found no OSS frameworks w/ outstanding doco.
IMHO, Wicket doco is much worse than Grails doco. The doco issues aside
you will benefit greatly from just acquiring a Grails guru
(ThoughtWorks, ThirtyHeads, come to mind.) I got lucky and found a
Grails guru that does not compare himself to a Ledbrook or a Roecher yet
he has not missed a trick on the very difficult job of migrating a
Legacy Java based system to Grails with value added.

Like yourself I come from a heavy Java enterprise background and even
with a Grails guru helping I still find some things about Grails
somewhat odd if not unpredictable. I think once I finally throw off the
old Java ball-and-chain my development life will improve even more.


On Thu, 2011-02-03 at 20:11 -0500, Bill Stephens wrote:

> All,
>
> Background:
> I'm a developer who supports (and develops) the caGrid open source,
> grid computing project that is the middleware of the National Cancer
> Institute's Biomedical Informatics Grid. I create tutorials, create
> and present training, maintain documentation and operate the Training
> Grid. I see a lot of what's wrong with Java enterprise development.
>
> Grails is a skunkworks project for me. I'm trying to provide an
> alternative to 'enterprise' web application development for cancer
> researchers.  I haven't heard of anyone else using Grails in the
> organizations that I deal with.
>
> I've only been working with Grails for 6 weeks but this is what I've
> found:
>       * Coming from a Java middleware/ enterprise perspective, Grails
>         is sexy and I'm loving it. This is some fresh air that I need!
>       * I work with teams that are using JBoss and Liferay or some
>         custom solutions to create web applications. I would love to
>         provide something to them that increases their productivity
>         and lets them be involved with new JVM-based technology.
>         Grails may be what I'm looking for.
>       * I've been working nights and weekends to create plugins to
>         support dev teams. Perhaps I'm picky, but I find the
>         documentation lacking.  An example is resolving dependencies
>         from an Ivy repository. If your Ivy repo is used exactly like
>         Maven (highly unlikely) it will work. Otherwise, your mailing
>         list posts go unanswered. It took a JIRA ticket to find the
>         undocumented settings.
>       * I have 12TB of available hosting capacity at my job so hosting
>         there isn't a problem. It is a problem for the private Grails
>         project that I've been working on.
>       * Grails lets me depend on and consume many unsexy Java / SOAP
>         web services in what I consider a very sexy package.
>       * I'm hopeful that the community will get enough mass to improve
>         adoption and provide a wealth of community driven
>         documentation. Hopeful, but not convinced.
> Bill S.
>
> 2011/2/3 Björn Wilmsmann <[hidden email]>
>         Hi there,
>        
>         in my opinion the problem is that Grails essentially comes
>         from an 'enterprise' background. This background comes with a
>         lot of cultural baggage and implications.
>        
>         While Grails certainly is a huge improvement over other Java
>         'enterprise' frameworks like JSF or Struts it still falls
>         short of matching Rails, which is kind of like the gold
>         standard for web development framework nowadays.
>        
>         Now, while tying in with existing Java frameworks and
>         'enterprise' requirements isn't a bad thing, a startup or SME
>         starting a new web app couldn't care less. They'll more often
>         than not choose a tool that gets the job done as quickly and
>         elegantly as possible. From my point of view, Grails still
>         doesn't perform as well as Rails in this respect. To name but
>         a few important issues where Rails easily outperforms Grails:
>        
>         1.) Startup time: Waiting like 10-30s or more for a web server
>         to start or unit tests to execute is just ridiculous nowadays.
>         2.) Error messages: Java / Groovy / Grails stack traces are
>         hideous. I don't care about abstract underlying exceptions,
>         Hibernate proxy-somethings and Spring whatnots. When
>         developing web apps I just want to see the exact line in my
>         code that caused the error. Sure, things aren't always as
>         simple as this but this behaviour should be the general case.
>         2.) Unit testing: In my opinion, unit tests with Grails still
>         require too much boilerplate code.
>         3.) Helpers: Rails offers much more and richer helper classes
>         that help you accomplishing common tasks in web app
>         development. Yes, for each of these there is a Java equivalent
>         but often these Java equivalents are far from easy to use and
>         require lots of useless code just to get them working in
>         common cases.
>         4.) Plugins: There are much more and especially more stable
>         plugins for Rails.
>         5.) Leaky abstractions: This mostly concerns Spring- and
>         GORM-related stuff. Once you run into something that can't be
>         accomplished with Grails right out of the box you have to deal
>         with Hibernate internals. ActiveRecord isn't perfect either
>         but at least you can revert to vanilla SQL, whose behaviour
>         often is much more predictably than HQL.
>        
>         Certainly, startups arent everything. Most well-paid jobs -
>         especially for Java developers - are in the 'enterprise'
>         segment. However, most of those are far from what's usually
>         considered fun or exciting. Let's face it, crunching numbers
>         for a bank or printing contracts for an insurance company just
>         isn't as sexy as the latest Web 2.0 app.
>        
>         Apart from hype and 'sexiness', Grails also doesn't seem to
>         have a lot of support in the 'enterprise' crowd. Some people
>         tend to become very religious about static typing (and why
>         it's the one-size-fits-all solution for any problem they can
>         think of) and the biggest non-issue of all time: Scalability
>         (If you're Twitter you have scaling problem, if you're Google
>         you have a scaling problem. However, if you're an insurance
>         company with 10,000 employees chances are you don't have a
>         scaling problem. Even if you do, you should probably worry a
>         lot more about your crappy WebSphere and SAP stuff than about
>         your web development framework).
>        
>         On 2 February 2011 13:09, Daniel Henrique Alves Limabld
>         <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         >      Hi, everybody.
>         >
>         >      I believe others have asked the following questions
>         before, but i'm
>         > looking for new answers:
>         >
>         >      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the
>         world" (for
>         > corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing?
>         Why not?
>         > What is holding back Grails?
>         >
>         >      I'm just wondering...
>         >
>         >      Best regards,
>         >
>         >              Daniel.
>         >
>         >
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>        
>         > To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>         >
>         >   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>         >
>         >
>         >
>        
>        
>        
>        
>         --
>         Viele Grüße / Best regards, Björn Wilmsmann
>         Geschäftsführer / CEO
>        
>         ----------------------
>         MetaSieve GmbH
>        
>         Universitätsstr. 142
>         D-44799 Bochum
>         Germany
>        
>         Phone: +49-(0)234-7089300
>         Mobile: +49-(0)151-25209060
>         Fax: +49-(0)30-46999-1267
>        
>         E-mail: [hidden email]
>         http://www.metasieve.com/
>        
>         Amtsgericht Bochum, HRB 12288
>         ----------------------
>        
>        
>        
>        
>        
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>         To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>        
>            http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>        
>        
>        
>



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Re: Grails adoption

Mengu
good night everyone,

i agree with everything on Björn Wilmsmann's post. i am not a java developer so i will speak as a non-java developer and from a non-java developer perspective. i really love groovy and grails so please do not get what i am saying wrong or as harsh criticism.

- groovy is a java back-up whereas, for say, scala is a java replacement. i hate groovy being a java back-up.

- both groovy and grails are aiming the java developers and the java ecosystem. the non-java developers are just welcome, nothing more. is this necessary? why a php or ruby developer is not aimed? having to understand java and how things work in java in order to understand how things work in groovy and grails is not good. why do i need to know hibernate or spring in order to benefit from grails' benefactions? this is not fair.

- both groovy and grails heavily depend on java and its ecosystem. being able to use any java library within my groovy or grails application is good but depending on java is not.

- groovy developers had just realized that performance is important so the improvements on this area are new but pleasing.

- while convention over configuration is important, simplicity should be uppermost priority. for example when i dive in the grails source, i hate jumping between many files or it should never be an headache when i want to understand how the RunApp script works.

- grails.org must be renewed. the content must be indexed so we can easily access anything on the web site easily.

- there is a #grails channel on irc.freenode.net. having more people and some devs in there wouldn't hurt. same applies for #groovy too as #grails is more crowded than #groovy. :)

- what i understood from the grails community is that the grails devs are pushing hard for grails being used in the companies they work for. that is nice. however spreading grails around the world or in their own country is a lot nicer. how about planning a strategy on that? that would be a realy community effort.

- tutorials and samples on anything grails is very important. for example there are grails-samples repo on github. how many people know that?

- screencast idea is really good. for example we can set railscasts as our example and record the same screencasts but just in grails. also, english is not the primary language of everyone in the grails community so screencasts in native languages would be very good. i will record groovy and grails screencasts in turkish, for example. 

that's all from me for now.
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Re: Grails adoption

Bill Stephens
In reply to this post by geezenslaw
David,

I've been enjoying the POC on Grails.  I expect that I'll have to hire someone to move this forward in a few months.

Thanks for the information.

Bill

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 9:11 PM, David Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Bill, FWIW I am using Grails to replace a legacy system that is
around 10 years old. I refrain from describing the legacy system as it
is coyote ugly. I have found no OSS frameworks w/ outstanding doco.
IMHO, Wicket doco is much worse than Grails doco. The doco issues aside
you will benefit greatly from just acquiring a Grails guru
(ThoughtWorks, ThirtyHeads, come to mind.) I got lucky and found a
Grails guru that does not compare himself to a Ledbrook or a Roecher yet
he has not missed a trick on the very difficult job of migrating a
Legacy Java based system to Grails with value added.

Like yourself I come from a heavy Java enterprise background and even
with a Grails guru helping I still find some things about Grails
somewhat odd if not unpredictable. I think once I finally throw off the
old Java ball-and-chain my development life will improve even more.


On Thu, 2011-02-03 at 20:11 -0500, Bill Stephens wrote:
> All,
>
> Background:
> I'm a developer who supports (and develops) the caGrid open source,
> grid computing project that is the middleware of the National Cancer
> Institute's Biomedical Informatics Grid. I create tutorials, create
> and present training, maintain documentation and operate the Training
> Grid. I see a lot of what's wrong with Java enterprise development.
>
> Grails is a skunkworks project for me. I'm trying to provide an
> alternative to 'enterprise' web application development for cancer
> researchers.  I haven't heard of anyone else using Grails in the
> organizations that I deal with.
>
> I've only been working with Grails for 6 weeks but this is what I've
> found:
>       * Coming from a Java middleware/ enterprise perspective, Grails
>         is sexy and I'm loving it. This is some fresh air that I need!
>       * I work with teams that are using JBoss and Liferay or some
>         custom solutions to create web applications. I would love to
>         provide something to them that increases their productivity
>         and lets them be involved with new JVM-based technology.
>         Grails may be what I'm looking for.
>       * I've been working nights and weekends to create plugins to
>         support dev teams. Perhaps I'm picky, but I find the
>         documentation lacking.  An example is resolving dependencies
>         from an Ivy repository. If your Ivy repo is used exactly like
>         Maven (highly unlikely) it will work. Otherwise, your mailing
>         list posts go unanswered. It took a JIRA ticket to find the
>         undocumented settings.
>       * I have 12TB of available hosting capacity at my job so hosting
>         there isn't a problem. It is a problem for the private Grails
>         project that I've been working on.
>       * Grails lets me depend on and consume many unsexy Java / SOAP
>         web services in what I consider a very sexy package.
>       * I'm hopeful that the community will get enough mass to improve
>         adoption and provide a wealth of community driven
>         documentation. Hopeful, but not convinced.
> Bill S.
>
> 2011/2/3 Björn Wilmsmann <[hidden email]>
>         Hi there,
>
>         in my opinion the problem is that Grails essentially comes
>         from an 'enterprise' background. This background comes with a
>         lot of cultural baggage and implications.
>
>         While Grails certainly is a huge improvement over other Java
>         'enterprise' frameworks like JSF or Struts it still falls
>         short of matching Rails, which is kind of like the gold
>         standard for web development framework nowadays.
>
>         Now, while tying in with existing Java frameworks and
>         'enterprise' requirements isn't a bad thing, a startup or SME
>         starting a new web app couldn't care less. They'll more often
>         than not choose a tool that gets the job done as quickly and
>         elegantly as possible. From my point of view, Grails still
>         doesn't perform as well as Rails in this respect. To name but
>         a few important issues where Rails easily outperforms Grails:
>
>         1.) Startup time: Waiting like 10-30s or more for a web server
>         to start or unit tests to execute is just ridiculous nowadays.
>         2.) Error messages: Java / Groovy / Grails stack traces are
>         hideous. I don't care about abstract underlying exceptions,
>         Hibernate proxy-somethings and Spring whatnots. When
>         developing web apps I just want to see the exact line in my
>         code that caused the error. Sure, things aren't always as
>         simple as this but this behaviour should be the general case.
>         2.) Unit testing: In my opinion, unit tests with Grails still
>         require too much boilerplate code.
>         3.) Helpers: Rails offers much more and richer helper classes
>         that help you accomplishing common tasks in web app
>         development. Yes, for each of these there is a Java equivalent
>         but often these Java equivalents are far from easy to use and
>         require lots of useless code just to get them working in
>         common cases.
>         4.) Plugins: There are much more and especially more stable
>         plugins for Rails.
>         5.) Leaky abstractions: This mostly concerns Spring- and
>         GORM-related stuff. Once you run into something that can't be
>         accomplished with Grails right out of the box you have to deal
>         with Hibernate internals. ActiveRecord isn't perfect either
>         but at least you can revert to vanilla SQL, whose behaviour
>         often is much more predictably than HQL.
>
>         Certainly, startups arent everything. Most well-paid jobs -
>         especially for Java developers - are in the 'enterprise'
>         segment. However, most of those are far from what's usually
>         considered fun or exciting. Let's face it, crunching numbers
>         for a bank or printing contracts for an insurance company just
>         isn't as sexy as the latest Web 2.0 app.
>
>         Apart from hype and 'sexiness', Grails also doesn't seem to
>         have a lot of support in the 'enterprise' crowd. Some people
>         tend to become very religious about static typing (and why
>         it's the one-size-fits-all solution for any problem they can
>         think of) and the biggest non-issue of all time: Scalability
>         (If you're Twitter you have scaling problem, if you're Google
>         you have a scaling problem. However, if you're an insurance
>         company with 10,000 employees chances are you don't have a
>         scaling problem. Even if you do, you should probably worry a
>         lot more about your crappy WebSphere and SAP stuff than about
>         your web development framework).
>
>         On 2 February 2011 13:09, Daniel Henrique Alves Limabld
>         <[hidden email]> wrote:
>         >      Hi, everybody.
>         >
>         >      I believe others have asked the following questions
>         before, but i'm
>         > looking for new answers:
>         >
>         >      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the
>         world" (for
>         > corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing?
>         Why not?
>         > What is holding back Grails?
>         >
>         >      I'm just wondering...
>         >
>         >      Best regards,
>         >
>         >              Daniel.
>         >
>         >
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>         > To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>         >
>         >   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>         >
>         >
>         >
>
>
>
>
>         --
>         Viele Grüße / Best regards, Björn Wilmsmann
>         Geschäftsführer / CEO
>
>         ----------------------
>         MetaSieve GmbH
>
>         Universitätsstr. 142
>         D-44799 Bochum
>         Germany
>
>         Phone: +49-(0)234-7089300
>         Mobile: +49-(0)151-25209060
>         Fax: +49-(0)30-46999-1267
>
>         E-mail: [hidden email]
>         http://www.metasieve.com/
>
>         Amtsgericht Bochum, HRB 12288
>         ----------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>         ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>         To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>            http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>
>



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Re: Grails adoption

John Fletcher-3

Wow what a thread!

Peter, the link you send has 3 or 4 screencasts posted in the last 6 months. The strength of railscasts is that every Monday without fail there is a screencast, same format, same style, similar length, same quality. Just read the comments and you see many comments like "Great screencast again! The first thing I do every Monday is watch the latest Railscast."

However above all I'm not trying to say SpringSource should do this. I think some budding private entrepeneur should kick it off and somehow try to monetize it when it gets big, through advertising or something (Railscasts has non-intrusive ads). Who knows, maybe I'll even summon the motivation (if someone is going to do it please let me know, I don't want to compete).

Many have pointed out the advantages of Rails. A lot of those issues are natural results of its greater age and larger community. The only way the newcomer can really beat the entrenched product is to offer something new or better. So one has to analyse what Grails can offer that is new or better than Rails. There are a few things, but probably the biggest is familiarity, consistency and less re-skilling for Java developers and Java sysadmins. I think it's natural therefore to focus "evangelisation" on Java people. It is also good to try to welcome non-Java people but to be frank you can't be everything to everyone. At my company we chose Grails for our environment due to familiarity because of the other Java development we do, had it been from scratch we would have gone for Rails for the reasons others have cited. I'm not trying to say be hostile to non-Java backgrounds, quite the opposite I think it is a great idea to be more welcoming to them in whatever way you can and in the long-term Grails has to become more than something "you only use if you already know Java". I'm just saying don't ignore Java programmers whilst making a massive effort to try and win hard-to-get non-Java programmers, since currently Java enterprise is probably lower-hanging fruit right now. And if you can get more users onboard, some of the deficiencies in respect to Rails will solve themselves and once that happens the non-Java programmers might choose Grails on pure merit.
 
Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which is only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of alienating these people, let's welcome them.
 
John
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Re: Grails adoption

fabien7474
John Fletcher-3 wrote
Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows
machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts
but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and
everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which is
only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise
standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your
screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they
don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of
alienating these people, let's welcome them.

John
John, I agree 100% with your analysis. Concerning the Windows thing, you are not nuts at all (or if you are nuts, I am as well).
Actually, when it was time for me to choose a technology for building my new web-app, I had reviewed many of them since I was new to web development (but I was familiar with Java space however).
And believe it or not, one of the main reasons I got rid of Rails was this anti-Windows feeling around Rails community (the other reason was ActiveRecord that I didn't like it). Yes maybe, Windows is less cool nowadays but it is still the predominant OS for developers and I am one of them.
One of the reasons I really like Grails as a newbie was dynamic scaffolding (together with Java environment). And here also, I think this is something that can be a significant strength of the Grails framework (over others like Rails)
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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
The anit-windows feeling is alive and well here too! ;-)

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 6:13 AM, fabien7474 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
John Fletcher-3 wrote:
Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows
machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts
but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and
everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which is
only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise
standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your
screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they
don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of
alienating these people, let's welcome them.

John
John, I agree 100% with your analysis. Concerning the Windows thing, you are not nuts at all (or if you are nuts, I am as well).
Actually, when it was time for me to choose a technology for building my new web-app, I had reviewed many of them since I was new to web development (but I was familiar with Java space however).
And believe it or not, one of the main reasons I got rid of Rails was this anti-Windows feeling around Rails community (the other reason was ActiveRecord that I didn't like it). Yes maybe, Windows is less cool nowadays but it is still the predominant OS for developers and I am one of them.
One of the reasons I really like Grails as a newbie was dynamic scaffolding (together with Java environment). And here also, I think this is something that can be a significant strength of the Grails framework (over others like Rails)



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Re: Grails adoption

tomas lin
In reply to this post by John Fletcher-3
Screencasts take a lot of effort to get right.

When I tried to do them for my blog, it took about 2-3 hours per video
--- granted, there was a learning curve in the editing, etc.
( http://fbflex.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/flex-on-grails-building-an-image-transformation-tool-with-the-google-app-engine-flex-and-grails/
)

I think there are a lot of good community links that are not
highlighted by grails.org.

For example, I imagine people would get more excited about Grails and
groovy if there was a simple link that said "Learning Center" on
Grails.org with demos like Graeme's Build Twitter video, a few starter
tutorials and links to good blogs and tools. ( i.e. Mr. Haki's blog,
Groovy Web Console, Groovy Pleac etc. ).

Right now, the website seems like a huge consulting and training ad
for SpringSource.

My $.02

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:40 AM, John Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Wow what a thread!
>
> Peter, the link you send has 3 or 4 screencasts posted in the last 6 months.
> The strength of railscasts is that every Monday without fail there is a
> screencast, same format, same style, similar length, same quality. Just read
> the comments and you see many comments like "Great screencast again! The
> first thing I do every Monday is watch the latest Railscast."
>
> However above all I'm not trying to say SpringSource should do this. I think
> some budding private entrepeneur should kick it off and somehow try to
> monetize it when it gets big, through advertising or something (Railscasts
> has non-intrusive ads). Who knows, maybe I'll even summon the motivation (if
> someone is going to do it please let me know, I don't want to compete).
>
> Many have pointed out the advantages of Rails. A lot of those issues are
> natural results of its greater age and larger community. The only way the
> newcomer can really beat the entrenched product is to offer something new or
> better. So one has to analyse what Grails can offer that is new or better
> than Rails. There are a few things, but probably the biggest is familiarity,
> consistency and less re-skilling for Java developers and Java sysadmins. I
> think it's natural therefore to focus "evangelisation" on Java people. It is
> also good to try to welcome non-Java people but to be frank you can't be
> everything to everyone. At my company we chose Grails for our environment
> due to familiarity because of the other Java development we do, had it been
> from scratch we would have gone for Rails for the reasons others have cited.
> I'm not trying to say be hostile to non-Java backgrounds, quite the opposite
> I think it is a great idea to be more welcoming to them in whatever way you
> can and in the long-term Grails has to become more than something "you only
> use if you already know Java". I'm just saying don't ignore Java programmers
> whilst making a massive effort to try and win hard-to-get non-Java
> programmers, since currently Java enterprise is probably lower-hanging fruit
> right now. And if you can get more users onboard, some of the deficiencies
> in respect to Rails will solve themselves and once that happens the non-Java
> programmers might choose Grails on pure merit.
>
> Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows
> machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts
> but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and
> everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which is
> only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise
> standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your
> screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they
> don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of
> alienating these people, let's welcome them.
>
> John
>

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Re: Grails adoption

Roberto Guerra
If the screencasts are made for IE, then it would alienate the majority who use Firefox or Chrome. Focusing on one web browser is not the way to go I believe. I work for a government agency, and although almost all desktops are Windows, the default browser is not IE.

+1 to anti-windows sentiment here also :D

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 5:29 AM, Tomas Lin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Screencasts take a lot of effort to get right.

When I tried to do them for my blog, it took about 2-3 hours per video
--- granted, there was a learning curve in the editing, etc.
( http://fbflex.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/flex-on-grails-building-an-image-transformation-tool-with-the-google-app-engine-flex-and-grails/
)

I think there are a lot of good community links that are not
highlighted by grails.org.

For example, I imagine people would get more excited about Grails and
groovy if there was a simple link that said "Learning Center" on
Grails.org with demos like Graeme's Build Twitter video, a few starter
tutorials and links to good blogs and tools. ( i.e. Mr. Haki's blog,
Groovy Web Console, Groovy Pleac etc. ).

Right now, the website seems like a huge consulting and training ad
for SpringSource.

My $.02

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:40 AM, John Fletcher <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Wow what a thread!
>
> Peter, the link you send has 3 or 4 screencasts posted in the last 6 months.
> The strength of railscasts is that every Monday without fail there is a
> screencast, same format, same style, similar length, same quality. Just read
> the comments and you see many comments like "Great screencast again! The
> first thing I do every Monday is watch the latest Railscast."
>
> However above all I'm not trying to say SpringSource should do this. I think
> some budding private entrepeneur should kick it off and somehow try to
> monetize it when it gets big, through advertising or something (Railscasts
> has non-intrusive ads). Who knows, maybe I'll even summon the motivation (if
> someone is going to do it please let me know, I don't want to compete).
>
> Many have pointed out the advantages of Rails. A lot of those issues are
> natural results of its greater age and larger community. The only way the
> newcomer can really beat the entrenched product is to offer something new or
> better. So one has to analyse what Grails can offer that is new or better
> than Rails. There are a few things, but probably the biggest is familiarity,
> consistency and less re-skilling for Java developers and Java sysadmins. I
> think it's natural therefore to focus "evangelisation" on Java people. It is
> also good to try to welcome non-Java people but to be frank you can't be
> everything to everyone. At my company we chose Grails for our environment
> due to familiarity because of the other Java development we do, had it been
> from scratch we would have gone for Rails for the reasons others have cited.
> I'm not trying to say be hostile to non-Java backgrounds, quite the opposite
> I think it is a great idea to be more welcoming to them in whatever way you
> can and in the long-term Grails has to become more than something "you only
> use if you already know Java". I'm just saying don't ignore Java programmers
> whilst making a massive effort to try and win hard-to-get non-Java
> programmers, since currently Java enterprise is probably lower-hanging fruit
> right now. And if you can get more users onboard, some of the deficiencies
> in respect to Rails will solve themselves and once that happens the non-Java
> programmers might choose Grails on pure merit.
>
> Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows
> machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts
> but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and
> everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which is
> only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise
> standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your
> screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they
> don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of
> alienating these people, let's welcome them.
>
> John
>

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