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Re: Grails adoption

Nikolai K. Bochev
Same here :)

There's a bit of contradiction that i see here. How come there's more people developing on rails ( with the anti-windows feeling ) and then again windows suddenly appears to be the preferred platform for development ?

I have certain php background, and i found developing php on windows to be a very unpleasant experience - not really tied to php itself, but to the trouble setting up all the other things ( IDE, VCS , Apache etc. ). I have been using linux for the past years, and since most of the hosting is done on linux also i found it natural to use the same platform as the hosting to develop and test locally. Makes stuff a lot easier.

Also as a reference to earlier posts - most of the grails things ( like scaffolding, DI etc. ) are things that php devs are starting to get used to, especially with the arrival of symfony2. I don't remember writing an app using plain sql queries in php for quite some time.

Another thing to note ( as a person coming from a php background ) is that in php, scaling is a lot easier to achieve. You just throw a bunch of apache servers , proxy them behind a nginx/haproxy/whatever , set up a memcached server for the sql and if you keep sessions in the db - bam you're all good. If you keep them on disk, just nfs share a partion among the apache backends and tell php to put the sessions there. That's it. No EhCache, no hard cluster setups. 

So far i have been just messing around with Grails, reading the books and trying to get a feel for the way it works. Things are good so far and i like it. 

The documentation is lacking ( check http://www.symfony-project.org/doc/1_4/ ) and the site ( grails.org ) could really use a boost in terms of contents and fuctionality. Yes i know there's books ( Grails in Action for example ) that give you a full blown app tutorial, but as i learned symfony in the past, their *free* online book for "Practical Symfony" was really what got me hooked to the framework in the first place.

Regards,


The anit-windows feeling is alive and well here too! ;-)

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 6:13 AM, fabien7474 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
John Fletcher-3 wrote:
Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows
machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts
but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and
everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which is
only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise
standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your
screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they
don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of
alienating these people, let's welcome them.

John
John, I agree 100% with your analysis. Concerning the Windows thing, you are not nuts at all (or if you are nuts, I am as well).
Actually, when it was time for me to choose a technology for building my new web-app, I had reviewed many of them since I was new to web development (but I was familiar with Java space however).
And believe it or not, one of the main reasons I got rid of Rails was this anti-Windows feeling around Rails community (the other reason was ActiveRecord that I didn't like it). Yes maybe, Windows is less cool nowadays but it is still the predominant OS for developers and I am one of them.
One of the reasons I really like Grails as a newbie was dynamic scaffolding (together with Java environment). And here also, I think this is something that can be a significant strength of the Grails framework (over others like Rails)



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Re: Grails adoption

tomas lin
There is a free grails book that covers grails 1.3 -
http://www.infoq.com/minibooks/grails-getting-started - just not
prominently highlighted anywhere on the front of Grails.org

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Nikolai K. Bochev
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> Same here :)
> There's a bit of contradiction that i see here. How come there's more people
> developing on rails ( with the anti-windows feeling ) and then again windows
> suddenly appears to be the preferred platform for development ?
> I have certain php background, and i found developing php on windows to be a
> very unpleasant experience - not really tied to php itself, but to the
> trouble setting up all the other things ( IDE, VCS , Apache etc. ). I have
> been using linux for the past years, and since most of the hosting is done
> on linux also i found it natural to use the same platform as the hosting to
> develop and test locally. Makes stuff a lot easier.
> Also as a reference to earlier posts - most of the grails things ( like
> scaffolding, DI etc. ) are things that php devs are starting to get used to,
> especially with the arrival of symfony2. I don't remember writing an app
> using plain sql queries in php for quite some time.
> Another thing to note ( as a person coming from a php background ) is that
> in php, scaling is a lot easier to achieve. You just throw a bunch of apache
> servers , proxy them behind a nginx/haproxy/whatever , set up a memcached
> server for the sql and if you keep sessions in the db - bam you're all good.
> If you keep them on disk, just nfs share a partion among the apache backends
> and tell php to put the sessions there. That's it. No EhCache, no hard
> cluster setups.
> So far i have been just messing around with Grails, reading the books and
> trying to get a feel for the way it works. Things are good so far and i like
> it.
> The documentation is lacking (
> check http://www.symfony-project.org/doc/1_4/ ) and the site ( grails.org )
> could really use a boost in terms of contents and fuctionality. Yes i know
> there's books ( Grails in Action for example ) that give you a full blown
> app tutorial, but as i learned symfony in the past, their *free* online book
> for "Practical Symfony" was really what got me hooked to the framework in
> the first place.
> Regards,
> ________________________________
>
> The anit-windows feeling is alive and well here too! ;-)
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 6:13 AM, fabien7474 [via Grails] <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> John Fletcher-3 wrote:
>> Another related example: I think screencasts should be made on Windows
>> machines, perhaps even using IE, if possible. You probably think I'm nuts
>> but it's kind of alienating coming into Rails as a newbie on Windows and
>> everyone who knows anything about Rails is on Mac, using an editor which
>> is
>> only available for Mac. Windows (and IE) is currently the enterprise
>> standard so why not make people feel comfortable when they watch your
>> screencast that they haven't missed the boat, they are not "uncool", they
>> don't have to buy a new machine to benefit from Grails. Rails is kind of
>> alienating these people, let's welcome them.
>>
>> John
>>
>> John, I agree 100% with your analysis. Concerning the Windows thing, you
>> are not nuts at all (or if you are nuts, I am as well).
>> Actually, when it was time for me to choose a technology for building my
>> new web-app, I had reviewed many of them since I was new to web development
>> (but I was familiar with Java space however).
>> And believe it or not, one of the main reasons I got rid of Rails was this
>> anti-Windows feeling around Rails community (the other reason was
>> ActiveRecord that I didn't like it). Yes maybe, Windows is less cool
>> nowadays but it is still the predominant OS for developers and I am one of
>> them.
>> One of the reasons I really like Grails as a newbie was dynamic
>> scaffolding (together with Java environment). And here also, I think this is
>> something that can be a significant strength of the Grails framework (over
>> others like Rails)
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion
>> below:
>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Grails-adoption-tp3253881p3259990.html
>> To unsubscribe from Grails adoption, click here.
>
> JT
> jts-blog.com
> ________________________________
> View this message in context: Re: Grails adoption
> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> --
> ________________________________
> Nikolai K. Bochev
> System Administrator
>
>
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local
In reply to this post by tomas lin

On 4 Feb 2011, at 11:29, Tomas Lin wrote:

> Screencasts take a lot of effort to get right.
>
> When I tried to do them for my blog, it took about 2-3 hours per video
> --- granted, there was a learning curve in the editing, etc.
> ( http://fbflex.wordpress.com/2009/05/25/flex-on-grails-building-an-image-transformation-tool-with-the-google-app-engine-flex-and-grails/
> )
>

Yes, good screencasts take a lot of prep. For me, 2-3hrs is conservative.

> I think there are a lot of good community links that are not
> highlighted by grails.org.
>
> For example, I imagine people would get more excited about Grails and
> groovy if there was a simple link that said "Learning Center" on
> Grails.org with demos like Graeme's Build Twitter video, a few starter
> tutorials and links to good blogs and tools. ( i.e. Mr. Haki's blog,
> Groovy Web Console, Groovy Pleac etc. ).
>
> Right now, the website seems like a huge consulting and training ad
> for SpringSource.
>
> My $.02
>

Meeeow! :)

However, this is entirely within expectations. That is how SS make their money. They purchased Grails, and that is how they will recoup - support and training.

I don't think they purchased it because they just love it. We all gotta pay the bills.

I do share the sentiment however, and really think that S2 are missing a trick currently (probably with all their products) in terms of community building for the longer term win of increased adoption and revenues.

The model just feels too conventional. In fact all of the products and sites in the portfolio (that I've seen) do.

But that's the enterprise market for you. But enterprise does not seem to be biting Grails the way it should, as aforementioned, most likely due to groovyphobia.

As mentioned elsewhere, it seems Java types get worried if they see a mac in a screencast ;-)

...so you can imagine it must be hard to swallow Groovy.

It is worth noting that there is a very strong correlation between usage/appreciation of Mac and the success of Rails. You cannot separate the two. It betrays a different philosophy ("Think Different"!) and that is what fostered the creativity that resulted in the massive progress in web development that Rails and Grails (by osmosis) bring.

To make easy to use, joy-inducing products, you have to appreciate good UX, design, and stop making compromises.

That is why people love Rails. That is why lots of us love Grails. Its all why a hell of a lot of us use Macs for dev.

What I'm getting at here is, that if enterprise gets put off by Mac, they're probably not going to "get" Grails or Rails etc either.

What's tricky for Grails is that S2 and the enterprise crowd are dragging it off to "Windows land" in terms of safety and familiarity, while they have been reeled in by the promise of "Mac land" design, UX and productivity gains.

Pulled in different directions.

Marc
~ ~ ~
Marc Palmer
Freelancer (Grails/Groovy/Java)

Blog         > http://www.anyware.co.uk
Twitter      > http://twitter.com/wangjammer5
Grails Rocks > http://www.grailsrocks.com








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Re: Grails adoption

Nikolai K. Bochev
In reply to this post by tomas lin
Yes, i already did read it, and it's a good startup, but not as nearly as complete as say "Grails in Action" or the symfony 24 hours tutorials, but i agree it's a start. Maybe making it more visible on the frontpage would be a good thing.

----- Original Message -----
> There is a free grails book that covers grails 1.3 -
> http://www.infoq.com/minibooks/grails-getting-started - just not
> prominently highlighted anywhere on the front of Grails.org
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Nikolai K. Bochev

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Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local

On 4 Feb 2011, at 12:29, Marc Palmer wrote:
>
> However, this is entirely within expectations. That is how SS make their money. They purchased Grails, and that is how they will recoup - support and training.
>

...and I forgot to include support and other revenue from products in the rest of their portfolio that are used to dev or deploy Grails apps.
>
Marc



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НА: Re: Grails adoption

ishe
In reply to this post by Nikolai K. Bochev
I think, Groovy should be a bridge between Java-developers and Grails. Unfortunately Groovy isnt very popular between java-devs.
They needs strong books about it.


--
igor


----- Исходное сообщение -----
От: Nikolai K. Bochev [via Grails] <[hidden email]>
Отправлено: 4 февраля 2011 г. 14:39
Кому: ig78 <[hidden email]>
Тема: Re: Grails adoption



Yes, i already did read it, and it's a good startup, but not as nearly as complete as say "Grails in Action" or the symfony 24 hours tutorials, but i agree it's a start. Maybe making it more visible on the frontpage would be a good thing.

----- Original Message -----
> There is a free grails book that covers grails 1.3 -
> http://www.infoq.com/minibooks/grails-getting-started - just not
> prominently highlighted anywhere on the front of Grails.org
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 11:44 AM, Nikolai K. Bochev

--


Nikolai K. Bochev
System Administrator




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Re: НА: Re: Grails adoption

Marc Palmer Local

On 4 Feb 2011, at 12:59, ig78 wrote:

> I think, Groovy should be a bridge between Java-developers and Grails. Unfortunately Groovy isnt very popular between java-devs.
> They needs strong books about it.
>

Yep, and a definitive online language reference that also covers the DGM stuff and GDK all in one place, free of ads and other noise.

Marc


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НА: Re: НА: Re: Grails adoption

ishe
I know. But many popular languages has many books and many students (and other young people) begin to learn programming from Ruby... but not from groovy. Gdk and others - thats good, but not enough. Groovy and Grails lost young people.

Sorry,
Its my oppinion.


----- Исходное сообщение -----
От: Marc Palmer Local [via Grails] <[hidden email]>
Отправлено: 4 февраля 2011 г. 15:05
Кому: ig78 <[hidden email]>
Тема: Re: НА: Re: Grails adoption




On 4 Feb 2011, at 12:59, ig78 wrote:

> I think, Groovy should be a bridge between Java-developers and Grails. Unfortunately Groovy isnt very popular between java-devs.
> They needs strong books about it.
>

Yep, and a definitive online language reference that also covers the DGM stuff and GDK all in one place, free of ads and other noise.

Marc


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Re: Grails adoption

Ken Liu
In reply to this post by pledbrook
Peter -

One key difference I see between Grails and Rails is that Grails is
actually a good fit for enterprise/corporate applications because of
the Java interoperability and integration with Spring.

Rails as a development stack is great, but the Java deployment is very
well understood by IT departments, which makes Grails applications
much easier to deploy, from the corporate politics perspective. The
ability to deploy a Grails application as a WAR and treat it like any
other Java application is a huge selling point. Operations teams
already have tons of infrastructure and knowledge around managing and
monitoring Java app servers.

It would definitely be great to improve maven and Windows support; but
that only makes developers happy; ultimately IT has a big influence on
technology decisions and emphasizing the Java deployment aspects would
help to reduce barriers to Grails adoption. I think SpringSource needs
to do a better job of selling/advertising this aspect of Grails and
promote it as an "enterprise framework."

On another note, as a developer, I have heard a lot of complaints that
the documentation for both Groovy and Grails is lacking. The content
is there and is steadily improving, but it's all very disorganized and
hard to work through.

For example, look at the way the Groovy documentation is organized:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/User+Guide

It's in alphabetical order, and there's no logical way to progress
through the documentation. You basically have to go out and buy GIA if
you want to learn Groovy. Even for me as an experienced Groovy/Grails
developer I sometimes find it extremely difficult to find reference
information on the Groovy web site.

Compare to Apple or (gasp) Scala:
http://developer.apple.com/resources/
http://www.scala-lang.org/node/104

On the Grails side, the wiki contains a lot of crufty old information
referencing old pre-1.0 releases of Grails; this needs to be archived
somewhere because these pages seem to rank high in Google searches and
leave new developers with the impression that Grails is not
progressing, when in fact it is constantly being improved.

I know you are working on improving the Grails site and documentation
and I applaud your efforts, but it would be great if SpringSource
could sponsor a focused effort to improve the usability of the web
site and present the information in a more friendly way (in terms of
UX, not just visual design).

Ken

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Peter Ledbrook <[hidden email]> wrote:

>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.
>
> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
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>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

Daniel Honig
Ken,
 Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
 I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for improvement.)

The directory:
 http://www.grails.org/Documentation

The user guide:
http://grails.org/doc/latest/

How might this documentation be improved?

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Ken Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:
Peter -

One key difference I see between Grails and Rails is that Grails is
actually a good fit for enterprise/corporate applications because of
the Java interoperability and integration with Spring.

Rails as a development stack is great, but the Java deployment is very
well understood by IT departments, which makes Grails applications
much easier to deploy, from the corporate politics perspective. The
ability to deploy a Grails application as a WAR and treat it like any
other Java application is a huge selling point. Operations teams
already have tons of infrastructure and knowledge around managing and
monitoring Java app servers.

It would definitely be great to improve maven and Windows support; but
that only makes developers happy; ultimately IT has a big influence on
technology decisions and emphasizing the Java deployment aspects would
help to reduce barriers to Grails adoption. I think SpringSource needs
to do a better job of selling/advertising this aspect of Grails and
promote it as an "enterprise framework."

On another note, as a developer, I have heard a lot of complaints that
the documentation for both Groovy and Grails is lacking. The content
is there and is steadily improving, but it's all very disorganized and
hard to work through.

For example, look at the way the Groovy documentation is organized:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/User+Guide

It's in alphabetical order, and there's no logical way to progress
through the documentation. You basically have to go out and buy GIA if
you want to learn Groovy. Even for me as an experienced Groovy/Grails
developer I sometimes find it extremely difficult to find reference
information on the Groovy web site.

Compare to Apple or (gasp) Scala:
http://developer.apple.com/resources/
http://www.scala-lang.org/node/104

On the Grails side, the wiki contains a lot of crufty old information
referencing old pre-1.0 releases of Grails; this needs to be archived
somewhere because these pages seem to rank high in Google searches and
leave new developers with the impression that Grails is not
progressing, when in fact it is constantly being improved.

I know you are working on improving the Grails site and documentation
and I applaud your efforts, but it would be great if SpringSource
could sponsor a focused effort to improve the usability of the web
site and present the information in a more friendly way (in terms of
UX, not just visual design).

Ken

On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Peter Ledbrook <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.
>
> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>

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RE: Grails adoption

Corum, Michael

I measure this by the amount of time it takes to research new functions or tasks compared to other environments like Java or Ruby.  The issue with Grails documentation is exactly as described.  The environment has changed dramatically and changes a lot between dot releases.  Many of those changes can only be determined by reading the source code.  The joke on our team is that when we research a Grails feature, we find four ways to do it.  In two of them, they reference an older way that you must NEVER do.  In all cases, one of those older ways is the correct way and the ONLY way that the current version of the software works.  I also look at comments and ToDo’s in our code and config files referencing web pages that explain why something works the way it does.

 

I think Grails is very strong though and has the potential to replace a lot of Java.  There are a few areas of concern for Grails in the enterprise.  One is the issue where it won’t run properly behind proxies because it insists on putting the app name as the context and using full URLs instead of relative (this is a fundamental breakage).  I can’t stress enough how important this is for more complex enterprise deployments and security such as web access management systems (Siteminder, RSA, etc…). The other area of concern is the documentation. 

 

Mike

 

 

From: Daniel Honig [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 9:42 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [grails-user] Grails adoption

 

Ken,
 Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
 I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for improvement.)

The directory:
 http://www.grails.org/Documentation

The user guide:
http://grails.org/doc/latest/

How might this documentation be improved?

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Ken Liu <[hidden email]> wrote:

Peter -

One key difference I see between Grails and Rails is that Grails is
actually a good fit for enterprise/corporate applications because of
the Java interoperability and integration with Spring.

Rails as a development stack is great, but the Java deployment is very
well understood by IT departments, which makes Grails applications
much easier to deploy, from the corporate politics perspective. The
ability to deploy a Grails application as a WAR and treat it like any
other Java application is a huge selling point. Operations teams
already have tons of infrastructure and knowledge around managing and
monitoring Java app servers.

It would definitely be great to improve maven and Windows support; but
that only makes developers happy; ultimately IT has a big influence on
technology decisions and emphasizing the Java deployment aspects would
help to reduce barriers to Grails adoption. I think SpringSource needs
to do a better job of selling/advertising this aspect of Grails and
promote it as an "enterprise framework."

On another note, as a developer, I have heard a lot of complaints that
the documentation for both Groovy and Grails is lacking. The content
is there and is steadily improving, but it's all very disorganized and
hard to work through.

For example, look at the way the Groovy documentation is organized:
http://groovy.codehaus.org/User+Guide

It's in alphabetical order, and there's no logical way to progress
through the documentation. You basically have to go out and buy GIA if
you want to learn Groovy. Even for me as an experienced Groovy/Grails
developer I sometimes find it extremely difficult to find reference
information on the Groovy web site.

Compare to Apple or (gasp) Scala:
http://developer.apple.com/resources/
http://www.scala-lang.org/node/104

On the Grails side, the wiki contains a lot of crufty old information
referencing old pre-1.0 releases of Grails; this needs to be archived
somewhere because these pages seem to rank high in Google searches and
leave new developers with the impression that Grails is not
progressing, when in fact it is constantly being improved.

I know you are working on improving the Grails site and documentation
and I applaud your efforts, but it would be great if SpringSource
could sponsor a focused effort to improve the usability of the web
site and present the information in a more friendly way (in terms of
UX, not just visual design).

Ken


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 12:23 PM, Peter Ledbrook <[hidden email]> wrote:


>>      I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
>> looking for new answers:
>>
>>      What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
>> corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
>> What is holding back Grails?
>
> This is a very good question. It's tricky to get numbers connected
> with Grails usage, but one thing seems very clear: adoption is
> strongest in the US. It also seems to be growing, and the trend in
> Grails jobs via indeed.com backs this up. But it's not rapid growth.
>
> Rails certainly has a head start in early adopters and startups as
> Marc says. In the corporate world, it seems that developers aren't
> keen on dynamic languages, but there are probably many other reasons
> that teams don't try or continue to use Grails. For example, its
> opinionated nature does mean that integration with some common tools
> and frameworks (such as Maven) isn't particularly smooth.
>
> Perhaps the Windows and Maven experiences aren't smooth enough? Also,
> the website doesn't look great from IE6, so perhaps that reflects
> badly on the framework? Unfortunately, we don't really know what kind
> of impact these things have. What are your experiences?
>
> On the comparison between Rails, PHP, and Grails, the former do have
> somewhat of a head start! But we certainly shouldn't just be
> targetting Java shops and I think 2011 will see more deployment
> options come online and make Grails a more compelling solution for all
> types of team.
>
> BTW, keep the feedback coming - it's very useful.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Peter
>
> --
> Peter Ledbrook
> Grails Advocate
> SpringSource - A Division of VMware
>
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>
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>
>
>

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Re: Grails adoption

edward.young
In reply to this post by Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

I haven't read this thread (at some 90+ responses), but I'll add my $.02 at the risk of being yet another "me too" type responder.

I work for a large US company in a QA Tooling and Automation software development group who's customers are primarily other engineers and some upper management types who need dashboard kind of metrics web apps.

I'm hesitate to say that Grails is being held back, but I have encountered the "are you considering migrating to the more stable JEE stack architectures" perspective from other engineers and even from some new interviewees.

I'd say, that there is some hesitation, due to the dynamic nature of Groovy which to many seems like magic. There is also the occasional snicker or scoff at the name Groovy as something to be used in the enterprise.

Grails has prevailed in our group due simply to the fact few can argue with success.

I introduced Grails "under the radar" by prototyping an app that needed to be developed rapidly because the customer (another internal engineer) and I knew it was really vital, but we were concerned about the danger of "PM ification". The app was immediately successful and was called "the million dollar app" because it immediately started saving the company several hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in it's use. That app was a single developer effort (+ the SMA) and underwent 3 or 4 iterations before it was considered 1.0. That took about 4 months.

After that success, I was asked to develop rapid prototypes for several other apps some of which are internal tools and some of which are much larger. We've also developed a very "enterpriseish" Grails app which was developed onshore and is now primarily being developed by an offshore team and managed onshore. Everyone involved seems to love Grails.

Our shop is now pretty invested in Grails, and we're very excited about it's growth and it's future.

I met some of the SpringSource Grails guys at the recent SpringOne and personally thanked them for all their work. I told them that I've had a lot of success with Grails (since ~ v0.5) and have had fun during (nearly) every minute of it.

Same goes for all the other commiters and plugin developers and everyone else out there in the Grails community. You guys rock!

Thanks!


On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:09 AM, Daniel Henrique Alves Lima <[hidden email]> wrote:
     Hi, everybody.

     I believe others have asked the following questions before, but i'm
looking for new answers:

     What do you think about Grails adoption "around the world" (for
corporations and private projects)? Is Grails usage growing? Why not?
What is holding back Grails?

     I'm just wondering...

     Best regards,

             Daniel.

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--
- Ed
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Re: Grails adoption

Björn Wilmsmann-2
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
On 4 February 2011 13:29, Marc Palmer <[hidden email]> wrote:

> It is worth noting that there is a very strong correlation between usage/appreciation of Mac and the success of Rails. You cannot separate the two. It betrays a different philosophy ("Think Different"!) and that is what fostered the creativity that resulted in the massive progress in web development that Rails and Grails (by osmosis) bring.
>
> To make easy to use, joy-inducing products, you have to appreciate good UX, design, and stop making compromises.
>
> That is why people love Rails. That is why lots of us love Grails. Its all why a hell of a lot of us use Macs for dev.
>
> What I'm getting at here is, that if enterprise gets put off by Mac, they're probably not going to "get" Grails or Rails etc either.

I completely agree with you. It's a question of culture not of
technology. Rails wasn't created by DHH because the rest of world was
too stupid to design such a framework but because he obviously was
courageous enough to do away with all the dead weight and bad
practices in web app development at that time.

Every reasonably proficient developer - especially in the Java world -
must have felt this, too. The thing is, most developers shrugged
indifferently and stuck to their 'enterprise' anti-pattern.

Having worked on a legacy JSF / Spring project as of lately I can tell
that it feels utterly horrible compared to Grails. Having to edit
various XML mappings, bean definitions, DAOs at various places is just
horrible.

However, there's absolutely no technological reason why Grails or Java
for that matter can't be just as great as Rails.

Besides, I think the idea of producing Grails screencast on Windows
(maybe even IE6?!) exclusively is terrible. I don't have anything
against being OS-agnostic but the prevalent usage of Windows in
enterprise environments is just part of the problem of which bloated
JEE software is a symptom. Having to use an OS that's inferior to Mac
OSX or Linux for most software development matters just because it's
some sort of 'standard' and it's 'always been done this way' is just
wrong. Even many developers who are avid Windows users install Cygwin
on their machines - thereby turning Windows into some sort of UNIX -
before embarking on any serious development.

An OS that can't even run Perl out of the box IMO can't be considered
suitable for any software development besides Windows client apps.

--
Best regards,
Björn Wilmsmann

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Re: Grails adoption

virtualeyes
In reply to this post by Marc Palmer Local
Interestingly enough, lowly PHP has the biggest upside in the relative job trends list.

Why is this? Despite the fact that PHP as a language is clearly in last place (or next to last, Cold Fusion may take the prize), it does appeal

Agile development: never have to restart
Deployment: breeze
Dirt cheap hosting
Designed for the web
Accessible: anyone can learn it, quickly

I have been working in PHP for 8+ years (groan), and am now making the switch to Groovy/Grails (about 3 months testing & loving the language & framework).

The biggest hindrance I see in deploying a live Grails app. is the issue of having restart when code changes are made to certain components of the application. Yes, GSPs are hot/reloadable, but controllers, domains, and services are not. I can live with "cold" domains, once in place should rarely change; however, controllers and services, it would be wonderful (read: open the flood gates of happiness) if these were reloadable at run-time in a deployed app.
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Re: Grails adoption

Ken Liu
In reply to this post by Daniel Honig
Daniel -

I agree, the Grails User Guide itself is well written and well
organized. The problem is with the information in the Grails wiki; a
lot (most?) of is it is outdated and incomplete and tends to mislead
new users. I feel like it should just all be replaced with the User
Guide.

The web sites for Groovy and Grails are the first place people will go
when they are looking into the technology. The point I am trying to
make is that these can leave a bad first impression for people who can
be already somewhat biased against "scripting" languages and
frameworks.

Ken

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Daniel Honig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ken,
>  Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
>  I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the
> documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for
> improvement.)
>
> The directory:
>  http://www.grails.org/Documentation
>
> The user guide:
> http://grails.org/doc/latest/
>
> How might this documentation be improved?
>

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Re: Grails adoption

John Thompson
I'd like to point out the Grails site is a public wiki.  As members of the Grails community, we're all guilty of not updating it.

I've suffered from outdated information... and didn't update the wiki.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Ken Liu [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Daniel -

I agree, the Grails User Guide itself is well written and well
organized. The problem is with the information in the Grails wiki; a
lot (most?) of is it is outdated and incomplete and tends to mislead
new users. I feel like it should just all be replaced with the User
Guide.

The web sites for Groovy and Grails are the first place people will go
when they are looking into the technology. The point I am trying to
make is that these can leave a bad first impression for people who can
be already somewhat biased against "scripting" languages and
frameworks.

Ken

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Daniel Honig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ken,
>  Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
>  I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the
> documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for
> improvement.)
>
> The directory:
>  http://www.grails.org/Documentation
>
> The user guide:
> http://grails.org/doc/latest/
>
> How might this documentation be improved?
>
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Re: Grails adoption

Müller, Wolfgang
Wow. I never tried.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:47 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to point out the Grails site is a public wiki.  As members of the Grails community, we're all guilty of not updating it.

I've suffered from outdated information... and didn't update the wiki.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Ken Liu [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Daniel -

I agree, the Grails User Guide itself is well written and well
organized. The problem is with the information in the Grails wiki; a
lot (most?) of is it is outdated and incomplete and tends to mislead
new users. I feel like it should just all be replaced with the User
Guide.

The web sites for Groovy and Grails are the first place people will go
when they are looking into the technology. The point I am trying to
make is that these can leave a bad first impression for people who can
be already somewhat biased against "scripting" languages and
frameworks.

Ken

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Daniel Honig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ken,
>  Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
>  I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the
> documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for
> improvement.)
>
> The directory:
>  http://www.grails.org/Documentation
>
> The user guide:
> http://grails.org/doc/latest/
>
> How might this documentation be improved?
>
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Re: Grails adoption

Daniel Henrique Alves Lima
In reply to this post by John Fletcher-3
John Fletcher wrote:
(...)

>
> Many have pointed out the advantages of Rails. A lot of those issues are
> natural results of its greater age and larger community. The only way
> the newcomer can really beat the entrenched product is to offer
> something new or better. So one has to analyse what Grails can offer
> that is new or better than Rails. There are a few things, but probably
> the biggest is familiarity, consistency and less re-skilling for Java
> developers and Java sysadmins. I think it's natural therefore to focus
> "evangelisation" on Java people. It is also good to try to welcome
> non-Java people but to be frank you can't be everything to everyone. At
> my company we chose Grails for our environment due to familiarity
> because of the other Java development we do, had it been from scratch we
> would have gone for Rails for the reasons others have cited. I'm not
> trying to say be hostile to non-Java backgrounds, quite the opposite I
> think it is a great idea to be more welcoming to them in whatever way
> you can and in the long-term Grails has to become more than something
> "you only use if you already know Java". I'm just saying don't ignore
> Java programmers whilst making a massive effort to try and win
> hard-to-get non-Java programmers, since currently Java enterprise is
> probably lower-hanging fruit right now. And if you can get more users
> onboard, some of the deficiencies in respect to Rails will solve
> themselves and once that happens the non-Java programmers might choose
> Grails on pure merit.
> (...)

+1

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Re: Grails adoption

Scott6666
In reply to this post by Müller, Wolfgang
I looked and saw an edit button.  On the login page there is a register link but it doesn't seem to do anything.  Inspecting the code seems to show some kind of Ajax Updater.  I tried entering in name and password and then registering but nothing seems to happen.

Registration to the wiki is either broken or not user friendly.


On Feb 4, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Müller, Wolfgang wrote:

Wow. I never tried.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:47 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'd like to point out the Grails site is a public wiki.  As members of the Grails community, we're all guilty of not updating it.

I've suffered from outdated information... and didn't update the wiki.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Ken Liu [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:
Daniel -

I agree, the Grails User Guide itself is well written and well
organized. The problem is with the information in the Grails wiki; a
lot (most?) of is it is outdated and incomplete and tends to mislead
new users. I feel like it should just all be replaced with the User
Guide.

The web sites for Groovy and Grails are the first place people will go
when they are looking into the technology. The point I am trying to
make is that these can leave a bad first impression for people who can
be already somewhat biased against "scripting" languages and
frameworks.

Ken

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Daniel Honig <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Ken,
>  Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
>  I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the
> documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room for
> improvement.)
>
> The directory:
>  http://www.grails.org/Documentation
>
> The user guide:
> http://grails.org/doc/latest/
>
> How might this documentation be improved?
>
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Re: Grails adoption

tomas lin
The whole portal is open source too -
https://github.com/grails/grails-samples/tree/master/grails.org

fixes welcome


On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:56 PM, Scott Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I looked and saw an edit button.  On the login page there is a register link
> but it doesn't seem to do anything.  Inspecting the code seems to show some
> kind of Ajax Updater.  I tried entering in name and password and then
> registering but nothing seems to happen.
> Registration to the wiki is either broken or not user friendly.
>
> On Feb 4, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Müller, Wolfgang wrote:
>
> Wow. I never tried.
>
> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:47 PM, John Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I'd like to point out the Grails site is a public wiki.  As members of the
>> Grails community, we're all guilty of not updating it.
>>
>> I've suffered from outdated information... and didn't update the wiki.
>>
>> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:43 PM, Ken Liu [via Grails] <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Daniel -
>>>
>>> I agree, the Grails User Guide itself is well written and well
>>> organized. The problem is with the information in the Grails wiki; a
>>> lot (most?) of is it is outdated and incomplete and tends to mislead
>>> new users. I feel like it should just all be replaced with the User
>>> Guide.
>>>
>>> The web sites for Groovy and Grails are the first place people will go
>>> when they are looking into the technology. The point I am trying to
>>> make is that these can leave a bad first impression for people who can
>>> be already somewhat biased against "scripting" languages and
>>> frameworks.
>>>
>>> Ken
>>>
>>> On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 10:41 AM, Daniel Honig <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> > Ken,
>>> >  Picking on the groovy docs is a bit of a cheapshot :)
>>> >  I think the grails team has done a very good job of organizing the
>>> > documentation for grails. (though with everything, there is always room
>>> > for
>>> > improvement.)
>>> >
>>> > The directory:
>>> >  http://www.grails.org/Documentation
>>> >
>>> > The user guide:
>>> > http://grails.org/doc/latest/
>>> >
>>> > How might this documentation be improved?
>>> >
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>>
>>>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the discussion
>>> below:
>>>
>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Grails-adoption-tp3253881p3260889.html
>>> To unsubscribe from Grails adoption, click here.
>>
>> JT
>> jts-blog.com
>> ________________________________
>> View this message in context: Re: Grails adoption
>> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
>

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