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H2

Jonathan Carlson
I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by Thomas
Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the features
and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently suggesting that
H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed pretty
keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.

I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's what
Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is interested
in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:

== Using Hibernate ==
This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can use the
HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the file
src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will be
integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy the
file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1), rename
it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.




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Re: H2

Guillaume Laforge-2
Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and functions ;-)
Did you try H2, is it that good?
It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?

On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by Thomas
> Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the features
> and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently suggesting that
> H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed pretty
> keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
>
> I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's what
> Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is interested
> in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
>
> == Using Hibernate ==
> This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can use the
> HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the file
> src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will be
> integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy the
> file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1), rename
> it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> _____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
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Re: H2

Stephan.Schmidt
H2 is not traditionally open source, though the license looks BSD like.

"You can use H2 for free. Basically, H2 is freeware with source code.  
You can use H2 for free, and you can integrate it into your  
application, and you can distribute it. You may use H2 in your  
application (including commercial products) for free. You don't need  
to publish the source code of your application. You may distribute  
your application with H2 included.

However, H2 does currently _not_ use a traditional open source (GPL/
LGPL/Apache) license. The reason for not using GPL is to make sure  
nobody can make a fork of H2 at this time. In the future, the license  
will most likely be replaced with a regular open source license, but  
not yet. "

I think Thomas even mentioned that potentially he will make H2 a  
commercial project.

Other than that, Groovy in database is great.

bye
-stephan

On Mar 24, 2006, at 21:28 Uhr, Guillaume Laforge wrote:

> Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and  
> functions ;-)
> Did you try H2, is it that good?
> It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
>
> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by  
>> Thomas
>> Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the  
>> features
>> and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently  
>> suggesting that
>> H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed  
>> pretty
>> keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
>>
>> I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's  
>> what
>> Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is  
>> interested
>> in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
>>
>> == Using Hibernate ==
>> This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can  
>> use the
>> HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the  
>> file
>> src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will be
>> integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy  
>> the
>> file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),  
>> rename
>> it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>> _
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
>> the system manager.
>>
>> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
>> _____________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

--
   Stephan Schmidt
   [hidden email]

   PRESS ON. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
   Talent will not; nothing in the world is more common than  
unsuccessful
   men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a  
proverb.
   Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  
Persistence
   and determination alone are omnipotent. - Calvin Coolidge


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Re: H2

Jonathan Carlson
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carlson
I'm one of those guys who reads a lot and keeps tabs on what things seem
to be most promising, but I haven't gotten around to trying H2 yet
because I generally need an immediate use for something new before I try
it.  (I have at least downloaded it and started up the console :-)

Thomas knows there are still bugs to be found in the database so he's
not hyping it real big yet, but he has pretty good test coverage.  Given
his proven success with HSQLDB and PointBase, I'm confident he's going
to have a winner of a database.  He just released a new bug-fix build a
few days ago.

So far I've been pretty good about picking solid performers early on...
Struts, Groovy, Wicket (a very different kind of web framework than
Grails).  I stayed away from Tapestry (sorry Tapestry fans, but the
learning curve was just too steep)

H2's performance numbers compared to Derby, MySQL, etc look pretty good
if you can fully trust numbers from someone testing their own software
:-) ...
http://www.h2database.com/html/performance.html 

He currently only has table-level locking.  Row-level locking is on his
to-do list, but if it runs that much faster than Derby then row-level
locking might not be quite so important in the short-term.

OK, enough of my cheerleading.  I'm really not beholden to the project
at all.  I just like seeing if I can pick winners early-on and I think
H2 is going to be a winner.  :-)

- Jonathan




>>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 2:28:57 PM >>>
Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and
functions ;-)
Did you try H2, is it that good?
It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?

On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by
Thomas
> Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the
features
> and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently suggesting
that
> H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed
pretty
> keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
>
> I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's
what
> Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is
interested
> in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
>
> == Using Hibernate ==
> This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can use
the
> HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the
file
> src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will be
> integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy
the
> file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),
rename
> it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> the system manager.
>
> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>


--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy 

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
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Re: H2

Jonathan Carlson
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carlson
In Thomas' announcement about the latest build yesterday, he asked for
feedback about licensing it under a real open-source license like
Mozilla Public License.  It's good to be cautious, but I think he's
serious about licensing it open-source.  Proprietary Java DBs can hardly
compete these days.

- Jonathan



>>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 3:13:21 PM >>>
H2 is not traditionally open source, though the license looks BSD
like.

"You can use H2 for free. Basically, H2 is freeware with source code.

You can use H2 for free, and you can integrate it into your  
application, and you can distribute it. You may use H2 in your  
application (including commercial products) for free. You don't need  
to publish the source code of your application. You may distribute  
your application with H2 included.

However, H2 does currently _not_ use a traditional open source (GPL/
LGPL/Apache) license. The reason for not using GPL is to make sure  
nobody can make a fork of H2 at this time. In the future, the license

will most likely be replaced with a regular open source license, but  
not yet. "

I think Thomas even mentioned that potentially he will make H2 a  
commercial project.

Other than that, Groovy in database is great.

bye
-stephan

On Mar 24, 2006, at 21:28 Uhr, Guillaume Laforge wrote:

> Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and  
> functions ;-)
> Did you try H2, is it that good?
> It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
>
> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by  
>> Thomas
>> Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the  
>> features
>> and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently  
>> suggesting that
>> H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed  
>> pretty
>> keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
>>
>> I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's

>> what
>> Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is  
>> interested
>> in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
>>
>> == Using Hibernate ==
>> This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can  
>> use the
>> HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the  
>> file
>> src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will
be
>> integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy

>> the
>> file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),  
>> rename
>> it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
_____________________________________________________________________
>> _
>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they
>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
>> the system manager.
>>
>> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
>>
_____________________________________________________________________
>>
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy 

--
   Stephan Schmidt
   [hidden email]

   PRESS ON. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
   Talent will not; nothing in the world is more common than  
unsuccessful
   men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a  
proverb.
   Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  
Persistence
   and determination alone are omnipotent. - Calvin Coolidge



______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
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Re: H2

graemer
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carlson
On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I'm one of those guys who reads a lot and keeps tabs on what things seem
> to be most promising, but I haven't gotten around to trying H2 yet
> because I generally need an immediate use for something new before I try
> it.  (I have at least downloaded it and started up the console :-)
>
> Thomas knows there are still bugs to be found in the database so he's
> not hyping it real big yet, but he has pretty good test coverage.  Given
> his proven success with HSQLDB and PointBase, I'm confident he's going
> to have a winner of a database.  He just released a new bug-fix build a
> few days ago.
>
> So far I've been pretty good about picking solid performers early on...
> Struts, Groovy, Wicket (a very different kind of web framework than
> Grails).  I stayed away from Tapestry (sorry Tapestry fans, but the
> learning curve was just too steep)
>
> H2's performance numbers compared to Derby, MySQL, etc look pretty good
> if you can fully trust numbers from someone testing their own software
> :-) ...
> http://www.h2database.com/html/performance.html
>
> He currently only has table-level locking.  Row-level locking is on his
> to-do list, but if it runs that much faster than Derby then row-level
> locking might not be quite so important in the short-term.
>
> OK, enough of my cheerleading.  I'm really not beholden to the project
> at all.  I just like seeing if I can pick winners early-on and I think
> H2 is going to be a winner.  :-)

And what about Grails? ;-)

Graeme

>
> - Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> >>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 2:28:57 PM >>>
> Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and
> functions ;-)
> Did you try H2, is it that good?
> It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
>
> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by
> Thomas
> > Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the
> features
> > and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently suggesting
> that
> > H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed
> pretty
> > keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
> >
> > I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's
> what
> > Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is
> interested
> > in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
> >
> > == Using Hibernate ==
> > This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can use
> the
> > HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the
> file
> > src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will be
> > integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy
> the
> > file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),
> rename
> > it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify
> > the system manager.
> >
> > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
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Re: H2

Jonathan Carlson
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carlson
Graeme wrote:
> And what about Grails? ;-)

Oops, I figured Grails was too early to prove anything about my
predictions, but I definitely think it will be a winner... at the very
least it will be a winner for me and my purposes.  

Ever since I totally bombed on getting any volunteer help on an
open-source project using Turbine (none of the 5 volunteers could get
over the steep learning curve, much less myself), I've been on a quest
for an easy-to-use RAD web framework that doesn't make you put
everything into the page.  Wicket is extremely powerful and compact and
I hope to continue using it for my own stuff, but I think it requires a
strong grasp of O-O.  I wouldn't want to try to explain it to someone
new to Java and O-O.   When have to beg for help you can't be picky
about the kind of help you get.

Groovlets are great for quick-and-dirty web reports, and I've done a
bunch of those here at work, but I wouldn't use it for anything really
serious.  It too easily becomes unmanageable.

I knew that sooner or later, rapid web development had to get easier,
and thanks to the Grails team, I think it's really happened.

All of this stuff I've talked about has been driven by a desire to do
cool non-profit stuff outside of work given extreme time constraints (I
have 3 little boys and a wife at home!).  I've never found it until now
with Grails.  I think Grails is going to be the way to go for many,
especially after you write the book!  :-)

Also, I think Grails will provide a way for small companies
organizations to be able to afford custom software.  That's been a
virtual impossibility until now (IMHO) :-)   And now I've convinced my
boss to let me write some quick-and-dirty apps with Grails that never
would have been written before because of the time and overhead involved
in traditional Java web development.

Thanks!

- Jonathan

P.S. Feel free to quote me if you are desperate ;-)





>>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 3:41:04 PM >>>
On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I'm one of those guys who reads a lot and keeps tabs on what things
seem
> to be most promising, but I haven't gotten around to trying H2 yet
> because I generally need an immediate use for something new before I
try
> it.  (I have at least downloaded it and started up the console :-)
>
> Thomas knows there are still bugs to be found in the database so
he's
> not hyping it real big yet, but he has pretty good test coverage.
Given
> his proven success with HSQLDB and PointBase, I'm confident he's
going
> to have a winner of a database.  He just released a new bug-fix build
a
> few days ago.
>
> So far I've been pretty good about picking solid performers early
on...
> Struts, Groovy, Wicket (a very different kind of web framework than
> Grails).  I stayed away from Tapestry (sorry Tapestry fans, but the
> learning curve was just too steep)
>
> H2's performance numbers compared to Derby, MySQL, etc look pretty
good
> if you can fully trust numbers from someone testing their own
software
> :-) ...
> http://www.h2database.com/html/performance.html 
>
> He currently only has table-level locking.  Row-level locking is on
his
> to-do list, but if it runs that much faster than Derby then
row-level
> locking might not be quite so important in the short-term.
>
> OK, enough of my cheerleading.  I'm really not beholden to the
project
> at all.  I just like seeing if I can pick winners early-on and I
think
> H2 is going to be a winner.  :-)

And what about Grails? ;-)

Graeme

>
> - Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> >>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 2:28:57 PM >>>
> Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and
> functions ;-)
> Did you try H2, is it that good?
> It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
>
> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by
> Thomas
> > Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the
> features
> > and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently
suggesting

> that
> > H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed
> pretty
> > keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
> >
> > I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's
> what
> > Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is
> interested
> > in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
> >
> > == Using Hibernate ==
> > This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can
use
> the
> > HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the
> file
> > src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will
be

> > integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy
> the
> > file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),
> rename
> > it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
______________________________________________________________________
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify
> > the system manager.
> >
> > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> >
>
_____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
>
> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy 
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
>
______________________________________________________________________
>
>
______________________________________________________________________
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
notify
> the system manager.
>
> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
>
_____________________________________________________________________
>

______________________________________________________________________
This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
______________________________________________________________________

______________________________________________________________________
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
the system manager.

Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
_____________________________________________________________________
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Re: H2

graemer
On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Graeme wrote:
> > And what about Grails? ;-)
>
> Oops, I figured Grails was too early to prove anything about my
> predictions, but I definitely think it will be a winner... at the very
> least it will be a winner for me and my purposes.
>
> Ever since I totally bombed on getting any volunteer help on an
> open-source project using Turbine (none of the 5 volunteers could get
> over the steep learning curve, much less myself), I've been on a quest
> for an easy-to-use RAD web framework that doesn't make you put
> everything into the page.  Wicket is extremely powerful and compact and
> I hope to continue using it for my own stuff, but I think it requires a
> strong grasp of O-O.  I wouldn't want to try to explain it to someone
> new to Java and O-O.   When have to beg for help you can't be picky
> about the kind of help you get.
>
> Groovlets are great for quick-and-dirty web reports, and I've done a
> bunch of those here at work, but I wouldn't use it for anything really
> serious.  It too easily becomes unmanageable.
>
> I knew that sooner or later, rapid web development had to get easier,
> and thanks to the Grails team, I think it's really happened.
>
> All of this stuff I've talked about has been driven by a desire to do
> cool non-profit stuff outside of work given extreme time constraints (I
> have 3 little boys and a wife at home!).  I've never found it until now
> with Grails.  I think Grails is going to be the way to go for many,
> especially after you write the book!  :-)
LOL, tell me about it of 2 kids, one an 18 month old, time is of the essence ;-)
If you want to contribute anything to Grails feel free btw!

>
> Also, I think Grails will provide a way for small companies
> organizations to be able to afford custom software.  That's been a
> virtual impossibility until now (IMHO) :-)   And now I've convinced my
> boss to let me write some quick-and-dirty apps with Grails that never
> would have been written before because of the time and overhead involved
> in traditional Java web development.
Nice comments thanks!

>
> Thanks!
>
> - Jonathan
>
> P.S. Feel free to quote me if you are desperate ;-)
I might take you up on that ;-)

Graeme

>
>
>
>
>
> >>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 3:41:04 PM >>>
> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I'm one of those guys who reads a lot and keeps tabs on what things
> seem
> > to be most promising, but I haven't gotten around to trying H2 yet
> > because I generally need an immediate use for something new before I
> try
> > it.  (I have at least downloaded it and started up the console :-)
> >
> > Thomas knows there are still bugs to be found in the database so
> he's
> > not hyping it real big yet, but he has pretty good test coverage.
> Given
> > his proven success with HSQLDB and PointBase, I'm confident he's
> going
> > to have a winner of a database.  He just released a new bug-fix build
> a
> > few days ago.
> >
> > So far I've been pretty good about picking solid performers early
> on...
> > Struts, Groovy, Wicket (a very different kind of web framework than
> > Grails).  I stayed away from Tapestry (sorry Tapestry fans, but the
> > learning curve was just too steep)
> >
> > H2's performance numbers compared to Derby, MySQL, etc look pretty
> good
> > if you can fully trust numbers from someone testing their own
> software
> > :-) ...
> > http://www.h2database.com/html/performance.html
> >
> > He currently only has table-level locking.  Row-level locking is on
> his
> > to-do list, but if it runs that much faster than Derby then
> row-level
> > locking might not be quite so important in the short-term.
> >
> > OK, enough of my cheerleading.  I'm really not beholden to the
> project
> > at all.  I just like seeing if I can pick winners early-on and I
> think
> > H2 is going to be a winner.  :-)
>
> And what about Grails? ;-)
>
> Graeme
> >
> > - Jonathan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 2:28:57 PM >>>
> > Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and
> > functions ;-)
> > Did you try H2, is it that good?
> > It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
> >
> > On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by
> > Thomas
> > > Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the
> > features
> > > and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently
> suggesting
> > that
> > > H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed
> > pretty
> > > keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
> > >
> > > I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's
> > what
> > > Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is
> > interested
> > > in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
> > >
> > > == Using Hibernate ==
> > > This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can
> use
> > the
> > > HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the
> > file
> > > src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will
> be
> > > integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy
> > the
> > > file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),
> > rename
> > > it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
> they
> > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> > notify
> > > the system manager.
> > >
> > > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> > >
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Laforge
> > Groovy Project Manager
> > http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> System.
> > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify
> > the system manager.
> >
> > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> >
> _____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> _____________________________________________________________________
>
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Re: H2

graemer
On 3/24/06, Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Graeme wrote:
> > > And what about Grails? ;-)
> >
> > Oops, I figured Grails was too early to prove anything about my
> > predictions, but I definitely think it will be a winner... at the very
> > least it will be a winner for me and my purposes.
> >
> > Ever since I totally bombed on getting any volunteer help on an
> > open-source project using Turbine (none of the 5 volunteers could get
> > over the steep learning curve, much less myself), I've been on a quest
> > for an easy-to-use RAD web framework that doesn't make you put
> > everything into the page.  Wicket is extremely powerful and compact and
> > I hope to continue using it for my own stuff, but I think it requires a
> > strong grasp of O-O.  I wouldn't want to try to explain it to someone
> > new to Java and O-O.   When have to beg for help you can't be picky
> > about the kind of help you get.
> >
> > Groovlets are great for quick-and-dirty web reports, and I've done a
> > bunch of those here at work, but I wouldn't use it for anything really
> > serious.  It too easily becomes unmanageable.
> >
> > I knew that sooner or later, rapid web development had to get easier,
> > and thanks to the Grails team, I think it's really happened.
> >
> > All of this stuff I've talked about has been driven by a desire to do
> > cool non-profit stuff outside of work given extreme time constraints (I
> > have 3 little boys and a wife at home!).  I've never found it until now
> > with Grails.  I think Grails is going to be the way to go for many,
> > especially after you write the book!  :-)
> LOL, tell me about it of 2 kids, one an 18 month old, time is of the essence ;-)
> If you want to contribute anything to Grails feel free btw!
That should read I have 2 kids.. its getting late in england ;-)

Graeme

>
> >
> > Also, I think Grails will provide a way for small companies
> > organizations to be able to afford custom software.  That's been a
> > virtual impossibility until now (IMHO) :-)   And now I've convinced my
> > boss to let me write some quick-and-dirty apps with Grails that never
> > would have been written before because of the time and overhead involved
> > in traditional Java web development.
> Nice comments thanks!
>
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > - Jonathan
> >
> > P.S. Feel free to quote me if you are desperate ;-)
> I might take you up on that ;-)
>
> Graeme
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 3:41:04 PM >>>
> > On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I'm one of those guys who reads a lot and keeps tabs on what things
> > seem
> > > to be most promising, but I haven't gotten around to trying H2 yet
> > > because I generally need an immediate use for something new before I
> > try
> > > it.  (I have at least downloaded it and started up the console :-)
> > >
> > > Thomas knows there are still bugs to be found in the database so
> > he's
> > > not hyping it real big yet, but he has pretty good test coverage.
> > Given
> > > his proven success with HSQLDB and PointBase, I'm confident he's
> > going
> > > to have a winner of a database.  He just released a new bug-fix build
> > a
> > > few days ago.
> > >
> > > So far I've been pretty good about picking solid performers early
> > on...
> > > Struts, Groovy, Wicket (a very different kind of web framework than
> > > Grails).  I stayed away from Tapestry (sorry Tapestry fans, but the
> > > learning curve was just too steep)
> > >
> > > H2's performance numbers compared to Derby, MySQL, etc look pretty
> > good
> > > if you can fully trust numbers from someone testing their own
> > software
> > > :-) ...
> > > http://www.h2database.com/html/performance.html
> > >
> > > He currently only has table-level locking.  Row-level locking is on
> > his
> > > to-do list, but if it runs that much faster than Derby then
> > row-level
> > > locking might not be quite so important in the short-term.
> > >
> > > OK, enough of my cheerleading.  I'm really not beholden to the
> > project
> > > at all.  I just like seeing if I can pick winners early-on and I
> > think
> > > H2 is going to be a winner.  :-)
> >
> > And what about Grails? ;-)
> >
> > Graeme
> > >
> > > - Jonathan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > >>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 2:28:57 PM >>>
> > > Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and
> > > functions ;-)
> > > Did you try H2, is it that good?
> > > It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
> > >
> > > On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by
> > > Thomas
> > > > Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the
> > > features
> > > > and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently
> > suggesting
> > > that
> > > > H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed
> > > pretty
> > > > keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
> > > >
> > > > I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's
> > > what
> > > > Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is
> > > interested
> > > > in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
> > > >
> > > > == Using Hibernate ==
> > > > This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can
> > use
> > > the
> > > > HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the
> > > file
> > > > src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will
> > be
> > > > integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy
> > > the
> > > > file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),
> > > rename
> > > > it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
> > they
> > > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> > > notify
> > > > the system manager.
> > > >
> > > > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> > > >
> > >
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Guillaume Laforge
> > > Groovy Project Manager
> > > http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
> > >
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security
> > System.
> > > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> > notify
> > > the system manager.
> > >
> > > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> > >
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> > >
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> > For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> >
> > ______________________________________________________________________
> > This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> > intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> > are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> > the system manager.
> >
> > Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> > _____________________________________________________________________
> >
>
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Re: H2

Stephan.Schmidt
In reply to this post by Jonathan Carlson
Good to  hear,

> In Thomas' announcement about the latest build yesterday, he asked for
> feedback about licensing it under a real open-source license like
> Mozilla Public License.  It's good to be cautious, but I think he's
> serious about licensing it open-source.


> Proprietary Java DBs can hardly
> compete these days.
>

Yes, I assume that too.

bye
-stephan

> - Jonathan
>
>
>
>>>> [hidden email] 2006-03-24 3:13:21 PM >>>
> H2 is not traditionally open source, though the license looks BSD
> like.
>
> "You can use H2 for free. Basically, H2 is freeware with source code.
>
> You can use H2 for free, and you can integrate it into your
> application, and you can distribute it. You may use H2 in your
> application (including commercial products) for free. You don't need
> to publish the source code of your application. You may distribute
> your application with H2 included.
>
> However, H2 does currently _not_ use a traditional open source (GPL/
> LGPL/Apache) license. The reason for not using GPL is to make sure
> nobody can make a fork of H2 at this time. In the future, the license
>
> will most likely be replaced with a regular open source license, but
> not yet. "
>
> I think Thomas even mentioned that potentially he will make H2 a
> commercial project.
>
> Other than that, Groovy in database is great.
>
> bye
> -stephan
>
> On Mar 24, 2006, at 21:28 Uhr, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
>
>> Hey that'd be cool to have a DB with Groovy stored procedures and
>> functions ;-)
>> Did you try H2, is it that good?
>> It'll replace Hsqldb and will even beat Derby?
>>
>> On 3/24/06, Jonathan Carlson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I've been watching the H2 database (http://www.h2database.com) by
>>> Thomas
>>> Mueller (HSQLDB originator).   It's pretty impressive with the
>>> features
>>> and speed it claims to have.  I e-mailed Thomas recently
>>> suggesting that
>>> H2 support Groovy for stored procedures and functions.  He seemed
>>> pretty
>>> keen on the idea as soon as he can get to it.
>>>
>>> I assume Grails will support it as soon as Hibernate does.  Here's
>
>>> what
>>> Thomas says about using Hibernate with H2 in case anyone is
>>> interested
>>> in using it before Hibernate includes support in a build:
>>>
>>> == Using Hibernate ==
>>> This database supports Hibernate version 3.1 and newer. You can
>>> use the
>>> HSQLDB Dialect, or the native H2 Dialect that is available in the
>>> file
>>> src/tools/org/h2/tools/hibernate/H2Dialect.txt. This dialect will
> be
>>> integrated into Hibernate, but until this is done you need to copy
>
>>> the
>>> file into the folder src\org\hibernate\dialect (Hibernate 3.1),
>>> rename
>>> it to H2Dialect.java and re-compile hibernate.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>>> _
>>> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
>>> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
> they
>>> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please
> notify
>>> the system manager.
>>>
>>> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
>>>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Guillaume Laforge
>> Groovy Project Manager
>> http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
>
> --  
>    Stephan Schmidt
>    [hidden email]
>
>    PRESS ON. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
>    Talent will not; nothing in the world is more common than
> unsuccessful
>    men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a
> proverb.
>    Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.
> Persistence
>    and determination alone are omnipotent. - Calvin Coolidge
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
> intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they
> are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify
> the system manager.
>
> Katun Corporation -- www.katun.com
> _____________________________________________________________________

--  
   Stephan Schmidt
   [hidden email]

   PRESS ON. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
   Talent will not; nothing in the world is more common than  
unsuccessful
   men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a  
proverb.
   Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  
Persistence
   and determination alone are omnipotent. - Calvin Coolidge


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Re: H2

Guillaume Laforge-2
In reply to this post by graemer
> > P.S. Feel free to quote me if you are desperate ;-)
> I might take you up on that

We should start a testomonies page :-)

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
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Re: H2

Stephan.Schmidt

>>> P.S. Feel free to quote me if you are desperate ;-)
>> I might take you up on that
>
> We should start a testomonies page :-)
>

Tell me what you need :-))) Groovy and Grails are great.

I'll think about a testemony.

Yourkit uses:


"I had to collect data about a memory leak that happen over several  
hours of time in the production server. Using other profilers this  
was not possible since they kept on crashing. Using YourKit this was  
amazingly easy. It just ran in the background and I gathered  
statistics at certain moments in time and then compared them against  
each-other. YourKit is a really nice profiler and I use it now."
Geert Bevin,
Lead developer of RIFE
web application framework
"

I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did some  
Rails projects :-)

Stephan Schmidt,
Lead developer of  SnipSnap
weblog and wiki tool

:-)


> --
> Guillaume Laforge
> Groovy Project Manager
> http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

--
   Stephan Schmidt
   [hidden email]

   PRESS ON. Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence.
   Talent will not; nothing in the world is more common than  
unsuccessful
   men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a  
proverb.
   Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts.  
Persistence
   and determination alone are omnipotent. - Calvin Coolidge


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Re: H2

Jochen Theodorou
Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
[...]
> I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did some
> Rails projects :-)

Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails people it
is always a little difficult to explain the differences and possible
benefits.

bye blackdrag
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Re: H2

graemer
On 3/25/06, Jochen Theodorou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
> [...]
> > I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did some
> > Rails projects :-)
>
> Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails people it
> is always a little difficult to explain the differences and possible
> benefits.

I've written a little Introduction page in the user docs that may
help.. it doesn't list all of the advantages as these were discussed
in another thread but its a start ;-)

http://grails.codehaus.org/Introduction

Cheers
Graeme
>
> bye blackdrag
>
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Re: H2

Guillaume Laforge-2
That's a very nice introduction page!

I'm wondering whether we could mention the concepts of "services" and
"domain classes", to remind us about the usual layered architecture
for J2EE developers.
And I was also wondering whether we could rephrase the sentence about
Hibernate / Spring to say that we integrate them transparently?
(without the hassle and complexity of XML files, and so on).


On 3/25/06, Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/25/06, Jochen Theodorou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
> > [...]
> > > I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did some
> > > Rails projects :-)
> >
> > Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails people it
> > is always a little difficult to explain the differences and possible
> > benefits.
>
> I've written a little Introduction page in the user docs that may
> help.. it doesn't list all of the advantages as these were discussed
> in another thread but its a start ;-)
>
> http://grails.codehaus.org/Introduction
>
> Cheers
> Graeme
> >
> > bye blackdrag
> >
>


--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
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Re: H2

calathus
I read the introduction, but it makes clear that this project is sort of Spring wrapper by Groovy.
I'm not much interested in marketing buzz for scalability and complex transaction management and SOA etc. surrounding J2EE, One good thing of PHP or Rails/Ruby are nobody taking about these things. I think some language should have enough flexibility once some features(SOA) are recognized, without following certain framework(so many XML based framework in Java), it should be possible to add the feature without much restrictions apon application. Maybe AOP is one of the possibility.

Anyway, if we look at rails, the activerecord is one of the best part of it. there is a RIFE/CRUD which supports similar dynamic class generation based database scheme, I wonder why this was not used.(I guess this is because it was done as spring wrapper).
Other unclear aspect is the extent of AOP support in Grails, I think the degree of AOP of spring is rather weak compared to AspectWerkz. Also in my experience (about 2 years ago?), the integration of Hibenate and spring was not so great.(AspectWerkz was better).

The advantage of this type of approach using dynamic language over static (Java) language is it can supplement those language's weakness(I think Java itself can be evolved to such language too, but it has been ignoring  the concept of closure or higher order function, so I'm not sure that would bee the future of Java)
I think builder concept borrowed from Ruby is quite powerful(also the semicolon less syntax which make statement looks like expression is quite good not only syntactic simplicity but also for the performance advantage.)

anyway, there might be another project based on RIFE using Groovy as the wrapper.
Or Grails may provide another presidency framework.

I also think if AJAX approach would replace considerably current MVC architecture.
Since it allow to separate more cleanly the role of client and server. Server should just provide XML data as if it is sort of XML DB.(it may use RDB, but the communication is XML based.)
Then developing RCP application based on the same server architecture would be possible.
Here is one of the advantage of Grail or groovy based solution compared to Rails.

I actually wanted to know infomation about the decision not only for choosing something, but also not choosing something. or there might be another plans for grails..

C

On 3/25/06, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
That's a very nice introduction page!

I'm wondering whether we could mention the concepts of "services" and
"domain classes", to remind us about the usual layered architecture
for J2EE developers.
And I was also wondering whether we could rephrase the sentence about
Hibernate / Spring to say that we integrate them transparently?
(without the hassle and complexity of XML files, and so on).


On 3/25/06, Graeme Rocher < [hidden email]> wrote:

> On 3/25/06, Jochen Theodorou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
> > [...]
> > > I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did some
> > > Rails projects :-)
> >
> > Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails people it
> > is always a little difficult to explain the differences and possible
> > benefits.
>
> I've written a little Introduction page in the user docs that may
> help.. it doesn't list all of the advantages as these were discussed
> in another thread but its a start ;-)
>
> http://grails.codehaus.org/Introduction
>
> Cheers
> Graeme
> >
> > bye blackdrag
> >
>


--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

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Re: H2

tugwilson

On 26 Mar 2006, at 04:04, calathus wrote:

>  think builder concept borrowed from Ruby is quite powerful

I think you will find that Ruby borrowed the builder concept from  
Groovy :)



John Wilson
The Wilson Partnership
web http://www.wilson.co.uk
blog http://eek.ook.org


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Re: H2

graemer
In reply to this post by calathus
On 3/26/06, calathus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I read the introduction, but it makes clear that this project is sort of
> Spring wrapper by Groovy.
> I'm not much interested in marketing buzz for scalability and complex
> transaction management and SOA etc. surrounding J2EE, One good thing of PHP
> or Rails/Ruby are nobody taking about these things. I think some language
> should have enough flexibility once some features(SOA) are recognized,
> without following certain framework(so many XML based framework in Java), it
> should be possible to add the feature without much restrictions apon
> application. Maybe AOP is one of the possibility.
Well, maybe I didn't make it clear in the Introduction but the great
thing about Grails is it hides you from all these complexities and no
XML configuration is needed.

>
> Anyway, if we look at rails, the activerecord is one of the best part of it.
> there is a RIFE/CRUD which supports similar dynamic class generation based
> database scheme, I wonder why this was not used.(I guess this is because it
> was done as spring wrapper).
I wouldn't say its done as a Spring wrapper, uses Spring MVC as the
MVC framework and clearly relies on springs IoC container. RIFE/CRUD
was not out when we started Grails and even if it was we still would
have chosen Hibernate. It has the industry momentum, is robust,
flexible and powerful ORM framework that can map onto 98% of legacy
database systems. Grails hide you from that complexity with GORM, but
still supports the power features if you choose to go down that route,
it is the best of both worlds.

Hibernate is also looking likely to be the reference implementation
for EJB3 and if we integrate grails with the EJB3 entitymanager we
could offer EJB3 integration without the complexity. For me Hibernate
was the right choice at the time and still is the right choice, thats
not to say other persistence frameworks couldn't be plugged into
Grails as the architecture is structured so this is possible, in fact
supporting Oracle TopLink was mentioned at one point I believe

> Other unclear aspect is the extent of AOP support in Grails, I think the
> degree of AOP of spring is rather weak compared to AspectWerkz. Also in my
> experience (about 2 years ago?), the integration of Hibenate and spring was
> not so great.(AspectWerkz was better).
The Groovy language has its own built in support for AOP like concepts
with the MetaClass. Why complexify it with aspectwerkz? We use spring
AOP only where necessary most of the AOP-like features are implemented
with Groovy's metaclass.

I'm not sure what your experience was but spring/hibernate integration
has always been strong.

>
> The advantage of this type of approach using dynamic language over static
> (Java) language is it can supplement those language's weakness(I think Java
> itself can be evolved to such language too, but it has been ignoring  the
> concept of closure or higher order function, so I'm not sure that would bee
> the future of Java)
> I think builder concept borrowed from Ruby is quite powerful(also the
> semicolon less syntax which make statement looks like expression is quite
> good not only syntactic simplicity but also for the performance advantage.)
This is a concept Ruby borrowed from Groovy
>
> anyway, there might be another project based on RIFE using Groovy as the
> wrapper.
> Or Grails may provide another presidency framework.
>
> I also think if AJAX approach would replace considerably current MVC
> architecture.
Hence why grails' ajax support is only going to get stronger

> Since it allow to separate more cleanly the role of client and server.
> Server should just provide XML data as if it is sort of XML DB.(it may use
> RDB, but the communication is XML based.)
I'm sorry i totally disagree with this, alternative forms of DBs have
been talked about for years, but they NEVER obtain mass adoption? Why?
because the relational model is such a powerful and well supported
concept in terms of integration other systems, reporting and building
applications on top it of it.

besides you can store XML in a RDBMS so whats the problem?

> Then developing RCP application based on the same server architecture would
> be possible.
> Here is one of the advantage of Grail or groovy based solution compared to
> Rails.
Great! Elaborate on that a bit ;-)

Cheers
Graeme

>
> I actually wanted to know infomation about the decision not only for
> choosing something, but also not choosing something. or there might be
> another plans for grails..
>
> C
>
>
> On 3/25/06, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > That's a very nice introduction page!
> >
> > I'm wondering whether we could mention the concepts of "services" and
> > "domain classes", to remind us about the usual layered architecture
> > for J2EE developers.
> > And I was also wondering whether we could rephrase the sentence about
> > Hibernate / Spring to say that we integrate them transparently?
> > (without the hassle and complexity of XML files, and so on).
> >
> >
> > On 3/25/06, Graeme Rocher < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 3/25/06, Jochen Theodorou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did
> some
> > > > > Rails projects :-)
> > > >
> > > > Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails people it
> > > > is always a little difficult to explain the differences and possible
> > > > benefits.
> > >
> > > I've written a little Introduction page in the user docs that may
> > > help.. it doesn't list all of the advantages as these were discussed
> > > in another thread but its a start ;-)
> > >
> > > http://grails.codehaus.org/Introduction
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Graeme
> > > >
> > > > bye blackdrag
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Laforge
> > Groovy Project Manager
> > http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
> >
>
>
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Re: H2

calathus
Graeme,
Thank you for detailed reply. It made more clear the direction/design choise of Grails.
Grails as spring wrapper might have been a little bit offensive, sorry.

One thing which is still unclear is that role of spring in Grails. Are you going to use it only for internal implementation? or going to provide the features through Grails ?
Some idea of Spring like dependency injection which depends on XML can be easily replaced by SpringBuilder(like AntBuilder), that way, those XML configration can be replace by groovy codes.
(but I basically avoid most of them)

Also in general, supporting AOP using Groovy seems interesting idea. compared to AspectJ, which is java extention, this approach seems more practical to integrate these features in a single language without relying on external XML. In this respect, spring's AOP support is very restricted, and adhoc. It can only handle AOP for XML configured generated objects. So it is impossible to intercept object of created by outside/existing application. Also since spring rely on proxy(or CGLIB), the APO'ed object's identity are changed.(original object are embedded as delegate object). That caused some issues when maintaing object identity is important, for instance using mapping table based on object identity. That happend for Hibernate before(2 year's ago). Things are quickly changing, so I don't know the current status. But I guess, It won't be changed so much for these aspects.

Anyway, I'm not completely against for using Hibernate. Mainly I'm missing that aspect of Rails in Grails.
That means Class generation from Database to Groovy, not the other direction which is supported in the current Grails. So I think these are not much conflicting. If Grails can add this feature, it would be nice.

I rather prefer transparent table access without much depending on OR Mapper. RDB's modeling and ODB are quite different, rathar than try to hide or bridge these difference, it would be simpler and efficient to access DB using active record style. In other word, often, OR mapping just create another unclear layer on top of DB. But again, Hibernate3 seems supporing more this type of approach, so hibernate may be still useful.

For the XML DB, I might be misleading to talk about XML DB. I was just wanted to emphasize stateless session. It might be still needed, but I think the need of maintaining state will be reduced if Xform, or AJAX are going to maintain state in the client side, and server will be grately simplified the its functionality. In this sense, it will look like simple database server of simple transaction.
Also that will make web programming more ordinary pogramming.

Cheers,
C




On 3/26/06, Graeme Rocher <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3/26/06, calathus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I read the introduction, but it makes clear that this project is sort of
> Spring wrapper by Groovy.
> I'm not much interested in marketing buzz for scalability and complex
> transaction management and SOA etc. surrounding J2EE, One good thing of PHP
> or Rails/Ruby are nobody taking about these things. I think some language
> should have enough flexibility once some features(SOA) are recognized,
> without following certain framework(so many XML based framework in Java), it
> should be possible to add the feature without much restrictions apon
> application. Maybe AOP is one of the possibility.
Well, maybe I didn't make it clear in the Introduction but the great
thing about Grails is it hides you from all these complexities and no
XML configuration is needed.

>
> Anyway, if we look at rails, the activerecord is one of the best part of it.
> there is a RIFE/CRUD which supports similar dynamic class generation based
> database scheme, I wonder why this was not used.(I guess this is because it
> was done as spring wrapper).
I wouldn't say its done as a Spring wrapper, uses Spring MVC as the
MVC framework and clearly relies on springs IoC container. RIFE/CRUD
was not out when we started Grails and even if it was we still would
have chosen Hibernate. It has the industry momentum, is robust,
flexible and powerful ORM framework that can map onto 98% of legacy
database systems. Grails hide you from that complexity with GORM, but
still supports the power features if you choose to go down that route,
it is the best of both worlds.

Hibernate is also looking likely to be the reference implementation
for EJB3 and if we integrate grails with the EJB3 entitymanager we
could offer EJB3 integration without the complexity. For me Hibernate
was the right choice at the time and still is the right choice, thats
not to say other persistence frameworks couldn't be plugged into
Grails as the architecture is structured so this is possible, in fact
supporting Oracle TopLink was mentioned at one point I believe

> Other unclear aspect is the extent of AOP support in Grails, I think the
> degree of AOP of spring is rather weak compared to AspectWerkz. Also in my
> experience (about 2 years ago?), the integration of Hibenate and spring was
> not so great.(AspectWerkz was better).
The Groovy language has its own built in support for AOP like concepts
with the MetaClass. Why complexify it with aspectwerkz? We use spring
AOP only where necessary most of the AOP-like features are implemented
with Groovy's metaclass.

I'm not sure what your experience was but spring/hibernate integration
has always been strong.

>
> The advantage of this type of approach using dynamic language over static
> (Java) language is it can supplement those language's weakness(I think Java
> itself can be evolved to such language too, but it has been ignoring  the
> concept of closure or higher order function, so I'm not sure that would bee
> the future of Java)
> I think builder concept borrowed from Ruby is quite powerful(also the
> semicolon less syntax which make statement looks like expression is quite
> good not only syntactic simplicity but also for the performance advantage.)
This is a concept Ruby borrowed from Groovy
>
> anyway, there might be another project based on RIFE using Groovy as the
> wrapper.
> Or Grails may provide another presidency framework.
>
> I also think if AJAX approach would replace considerably current MVC
> architecture.
Hence why grails' ajax support is only going to get stronger

> Since it allow to separate more cleanly the role of client and server.
> Server should just provide XML data as if it is sort of XML DB.(it may use
> RDB, but the communication is XML based.)
I'm sorry i totally disagree with this, alternative forms of DBs have
been talked about for years, but they NEVER obtain mass adoption? Why?
because the relational model is such a powerful and well supported
concept in terms of integration other systems, reporting and building
applications on top it of it.

besides you can store XML in a RDBMS so whats the problem?

> Then developing RCP application based on the same server architecture would
> be possible.
> Here is one of the advantage of Grail or groovy based solution compared to
> Rails.
Great! Elaborate on that a bit ;-)

Cheers
Graeme

>
> I actually wanted to know infomation about the decision not only for
> choosing something, but also not choosing something. or there might be
> another plans for grails..
>
> C
>
>
> On 3/25/06, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > That's a very nice introduction page!
> >
> > I'm wondering whether we could mention the concepts of "services" and
> > "domain classes", to remind us about the usual layered architecture
> > for J2EE developers.
> > And I was also wondering whether we could rephrase the sentence about
> > Hibernate / Spring to say that we integrate them transparently?
> > (without the hassle and complexity of XML files, and so on).
> >
> >
> > On 3/25/06, Graeme Rocher < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On 3/25/06, Jochen Theodorou <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
> > > > [...]
> > > > > I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did
> some
> > > > > Rails projects :-)

> > > >
> > > > Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails people it
> > > > is always a little difficult to explain the differences and possible
> > > > benefits.
> > >
> > > I've written a little Introduction page in the user docs that may
> > > help.. it doesn't list all of the advantages as these were discussed
> > > in another thread but its a start ;-)
> > >
> > > http://grails.codehaus.org/Introduction
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Graeme
> > > >
> > > > bye blackdrag
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Guillaume Laforge
> > Groovy Project Manager
> > http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
> >
>
>

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Re: H2

graemer
On 3/26/06, calathus <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Graeme,
> Thank you for detailed reply. It made more clear the direction/design choise
> of Grails.
> Grails as spring wrapper might have been a little bit offensive, sorry.
>
> One thing which is still unclear is that role of spring in Grails. Are you
> going to use it only for internal implementation? or going to provide the
> features through Grails ?
In most cases we try to hide the complexeties and provide an
abstraction layer rather than exposing the user to spring itself

> Some idea of Spring like dependency injection which depends on XML can be
> easily replaced by SpringBuilder(like AntBuilder), that way, those XML
> configration can be replace by groovy codes.
> (but I basically avoid most of them)
there is already a task for this: http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/GRAILS-31

>
> Also in general, supporting AOP using Groovy seems interesting idea.
> compared to AspectJ, which is java extention, this approach seems more
> practical to integrate these features in a single language without relying
> on external XML. In this respect, spring's AOP support is very restricted,
> and adhoc. It can only handle AOP for XML configured generated objects. So
> it is impossible to intercept object of created by outside/existing
> application. Also since spring rely on proxy(or CGLIB), the APO'ed object's
> identity are changed.(original object are embedded as delegate object). That
> caused some issues when maintaing object identity is important, for instance
> using mapping table based on object identity. That happend for Hibernate
> before(2 year's ago). Things are quickly changing, so I don't know the
> current status. But I guess, It won't be changed so much for these aspects.
>
> Anyway, I'm not completely against for using Hibernate. Mainly I'm missing
> that aspect of Rails in Grails.
> That means Class generation from Database to Groovy, not the other direction
> which is supported in the current Grails. So I think these are not much
> conflicting. If Grails can add this feature, it would be nice.
We may add the ability to generate your domain model from a db, but
tbh i don't like this feature of rails, it makes it difficult to
understand the meaning of your domain model and i'm much happier with
grails' approach to this, although i acknowledge it has its
disadvantages.

>
> I rather prefer transparent table access without much depending on OR
> Mapper. RDB's modeling and ODB are quite different, rathar than try to hide
> or bridge these difference, it would be simpler and efficient to access DB
> using active record style. In other word, often, OR mapping just create
> another unclear layer on top of DB. But again, Hibernate3 seems supporing
> more this type of approach, so hibernate may be still useful.
I think that GORM is relatively transparent and so simply to configure
that it hardly hinders the user. I'm barely aware that i'm using an
ORM solution when using grails domain classes

>
> For the XML DB, I might be misleading to talk about XML DB. I was just
> wanted to emphasize stateless session. It might be still needed, but I think
> the need of maintaining state will be reduced if Xform, or AJAX are going to
> maintain state in the client side, and server will be grately simplified the
> its functionality. In this sense, it will look like simple database server
> of simple transaction.
> Also that will make web programming more ordinary pogramming.
Indeed, well we're planning a lot of features in this area including
advanced UI components for ajax

Cheers
Graeme

>
> Cheers,
> C
>
>
>
>
>
> On 3/26/06, Graeme Rocher < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 3/26/06, calathus < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I read the introduction, but it makes clear that this project is sort of
> > > Spring wrapper by Groovy.
> > > I'm not much interested in marketing buzz for scalability and complex
> > > transaction management and SOA etc. surrounding J2EE, One good thing of
> PHP
> > > or Rails/Ruby are nobody taking about these things. I think some
> language
> > > should have enough flexibility once some features(SOA) are recognized,
> > > without following certain framework(so many XML based framework in
> Java), it
> > > should be possible to add the feature without much restrictions apon
> > > application. Maybe AOP is one of the possibility.
> > Well, maybe I didn't make it clear in the Introduction but the great
> > thing about Grails is it hides you from all these complexities and no
> > XML configuration is needed.
> >
> > >
> > > Anyway, if we look at rails, the activerecord is one of the best part of
> it.
> > > there is a RIFE/CRUD which supports similar dynamic class generation
> based
> > > database scheme, I wonder why this was not used.(I guess this is because
> it
> > > was done as spring wrapper).
> > I wouldn't say its done as a Spring wrapper, uses Spring MVC as the
> > MVC framework and clearly relies on springs IoC container. RIFE/CRUD
> > was not out when we started Grails and even if it was we still would
> > have chosen Hibernate. It has the industry momentum, is robust,
> > flexible and powerful ORM framework that can map onto 98% of legacy
> > database systems. Grails hide you from that complexity with GORM, but
> > still supports the power features if you choose to go down that route,
> > it is the best of both worlds.
> >
> > Hibernate is also looking likely to be the reference implementation
> > for EJB3 and if we integrate grails with the EJB3 entitymanager we
> > could offer EJB3 integration without the complexity. For me Hibernate
> > was the right choice at the time and still is the right choice, thats
> > not to say other persistence frameworks couldn't be plugged into
> > Grails as the architecture is structured so this is possible, in fact
> > supporting Oracle TopLink was mentioned at one point I believe
> >
> > > Other unclear aspect is the extent of AOP support in Grails, I think the
> > > degree of AOP of spring is rather weak compared to AspectWerkz. Also in
> my
> > > experience (about 2 years ago?), the integration of Hibenate and spring
> was
> > > not so great.(AspectWerkz was better).
> > The Groovy language has its own built in support for AOP like concepts
> > with the MetaClass. Why complexify it with aspectwerkz? We use spring
> > AOP only where necessary most of the AOP-like features are implemented
> > with Groovy's metaclass.
> >
> > I'm not sure what your experience was but spring/hibernate integration
> > has always been strong.
> >
> > >
> > > The advantage of this type of approach using dynamic language over
> static
> > > (Java) language is it can supplement those language's weakness(I think
> Java
> > > itself can be evolved to such language too, but it has been ignoring
> the
> > > concept of closure or higher order function, so I'm not sure that would
> bee
> > > the future of Java)
> > > I think builder concept borrowed from Ruby is quite powerful(also the
> > > semicolon less syntax which make statement looks like expression is
> quite
> > > good not only syntactic simplicity but also for the performance
> advantage.)
> > This is a concept Ruby borrowed from Groovy
> > >
> > > anyway, there might be another project based on RIFE using Groovy as the
> > > wrapper.
> > > Or Grails may provide another presidency framework.
> > >
> > > I also think if AJAX approach would replace considerably current MVC
> > > architecture.
> > Hence why grails' ajax support is only going to get stronger
> >
> > > Since it allow to separate more cleanly the role of client and server.
> > > Server should just provide XML data as if it is sort of XML DB.(it may
> use
> > > RDB, but the communication is XML based.)
> > I'm sorry i totally disagree with this, alternative forms of DBs have
> > been talked about for years, but they NEVER obtain mass adoption? Why?
> > because the relational model is such a powerful and well supported
> > concept in terms of integration other systems, reporting and building
> > applications on top it of it.
> >
> > besides you can store XML in a RDBMS so whats the problem?
> >
> > > Then developing RCP application based on the same server architecture
> would
> > > be possible.
> > > Here is one of the advantage of Grail or groovy based solution compared
> to
> > > Rails.
> > Great! Elaborate on that a bit ;-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Graeme
> > >
> > > I actually wanted to know infomation about the decision not only for
> > > choosing something, but also not choosing something. or there might be
> > > another plans for grails..
> > >
> > > C
> > >
> > >
> > > On 3/25/06, Guillaume Laforge <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > That's a very nice introduction page!
> > > >
> > > > I'm wondering whether we could mention the concepts of "services" and
> > > > "domain classes", to remind us about the usual layered architecture
> > > > for J2EE developers.
> > > > And I was also wondering whether we could rephrase the sentence about
> > > > Hibernate / Spring to say that we integrate them transparently?
> > > > (without the hassle and complexity of XML files, and so on).
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 3/25/06, Graeme Rocher < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > On 3/25/06, Jochen Theodorou < [hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > > > Stephan J. Schmidt schrieb:
> > > > > > [...]
> > > > > > > I could say something about how Grails is better than Rails (did
> > > some
> > > > > > > Rails projects :-)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes? Then go on, because when speaking about Grails to Rails
> people it
> > > > > > is always a little difficult to explain the differences and
> possible
> > > > > > benefits.
> > > > >
> > > > > I've written a little Introduction page in the user docs that may
> > > > > help.. it doesn't list all of the advantages as these were discussed
> > > > > in another thread but its a start ;-)
> > > > >
> > > > > http://grails.codehaus.org/Introduction
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers
> > > > > Graeme
> > > > > >
> > > > > > bye blackdrag
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Guillaume Laforge
> > > > Groovy Project Manager
> > > > http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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