How many Grails Developer globally?

[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi there,

Did anyone here know how to find out this number? Did SpringSource have the estimates about number of Grails developer globally?

In this forum, I find out that there is 2,216 registered users. I think it is reliable number for Grails supporter, but it doesn't help to estimate total number of Grails developer globally

What do you think?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi there,

I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.

Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think this number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

[Dean Del Ponte-2]

There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be guessing.

If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.

You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.

- Dean Del Ponte

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi there,

I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.

Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think this
number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin


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[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi Dean Del Ponte,

Thanks for writing and suggestion. Do you know how/where to get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails?

Best regards,

Chee Kin

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Dean Del Ponte-2 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be guessing.

If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.

You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.

- Dean Del Ponte

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi there,

I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.

Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think this
number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

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[Daniel Honig]

Download stats is probably the best way to get a rough estimate.
It is on the verge of being a Mt. Fuji question....

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Dean Del Ponte,

Thanks for writing and suggestion. Do you know how/where to get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails?

Best regards,

Chee Kin

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Dean Del Ponte-2 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be guessing.

If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.

You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.

- Dean Del Ponte

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi there,

I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.

Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think this
number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

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[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi Daniel Honig,

Thanks for writing. May I know how/where to get the download stats?

Regards,

Chee Kin

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Daniel Honig [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Download stats is probably the best way to get a rough estimate.
It is on the verge of being a Mt. Fuji question....

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Dean Del Ponte,

Thanks for writing and suggestion. Do you know how/where to get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails?

Best regards,

Chee Kin

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Dean Del Ponte-2 [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be guessing.

If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.

You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.

- Dean Del Ponte

On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi there,

I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.

Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think this
number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

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[Daniel Honig]

You might try kindly asking one of the comitters on the SpringSource team.

On 3/8/11, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Daniel Honig,
>
> Thanks for writing. May I know how/where to get the download stats?
>
> Regards,
> Chee Kin
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Daniel Honig [via Grails] <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Download stats is probably the best way to get a rough estimate.
>> It is on the verge of being a Mt. Fuji question....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden
>> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3342668&i=0&by-user=t>
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dean Del Ponte,
>>>
>>> Thanks for writing and suggestion. Do you know how/where to get
>>> the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Chee Kin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Dean Del Ponte-2 [via Grails] <[hidden
>>> email]
>>> <http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3342639&i=0&by-user=t>>wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be
>>>> guessing.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java
>>>> developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.
>>>>
>>>> You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for
>>>> Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.
>>>>
>>>> - Dean Del Ponte
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden
>>>> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3341295&i=0&by-user=t>
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>
>>>>> I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
>>>>> http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think
>>>>> this
>>>>> number making any sense?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Chee Kin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3340739.html<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3340739.html?by-user=t&by-user=t&by-user=t>
>>>>> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>>>>
>>>>>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>  If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
>>>> discussion below:
>>>>
>>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3341295.html<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3341295.html?by-user=t&by-user=t>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> View this message in context: Re: How many Grails Developer
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>>>
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>>
>>
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[Lim Chee Kin]

Sure. Thanks.

Best regards,
Chee Kin

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:32 AM, Daniel Honig [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

You might try kindly asking one of the comitters on the SpringSource team.

On 3/8/11, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Daniel Honig,
>
> Thanks for writing. May I know how/where to get the download stats?
>
> Regards,
> Chee Kin
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Daniel Honig [via Grails] <

> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Download stats is probably the best way to get a rough estimate.
>> It is on the verge of being a Mt. Fuji question....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden

>> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3342668&i=0&by-user=t>

>> > wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Dean Del Ponte,
>>>
>>> Thanks for writing and suggestion. Do you know how/where to get
>>> the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails?
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Chee Kin
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Dean Del Ponte-2 [via Grails] <[hidden
>>> email]

>>> <http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3342639&i=0&by-user=t>>wrote:

>>>
>>>> There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be
>>>> guessing.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java
>>>> developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.
>>>>
>>>> You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for
>>>> Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.
>>>>
>>>> - Dean Del Ponte
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden

>>>> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3341295&i=0&by-user=t>

>>>> > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>
>>>>> I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
>>>>> http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.
>>>>>
>>>>> Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think
>>>>> this
>>>>> number making any sense?
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Chee Kin
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> View this message in context:

>>>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3340739.html<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3340739.html?by-user=t&by-user=t&by-user=t>

>>>>> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>>>>
>>>>>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>  If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
>>>> discussion below:
>>>>

>>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3341295.html<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3341295.html?by-user=t&by-user=t>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------

>>> View this message in context: Re: How many Grails Developer

>>> globally?<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3342639.html?by-user=t>

>>>
>>> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list

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>>>
>>
>>
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[basejump (Josh)]

The answer, I think, is 42
But we need to find out the Ultimate Question is here.

Regards,

Joshua "Dirk" Burnett

On Mar 8, 2011, at 9:32 PM, Daniel Honig wrote:

> You might try kindly asking one of the comitters on the SpringSource team.
>
> On 3/8/11, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Daniel Honig,
>>
>> Thanks for writing. May I know how/where to get the download stats?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Chee Kin
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:01 AM, Daniel Honig [via Grails] <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Download stats is probably the best way to get a rough estimate.
>>> It is on the verge of being a Mt. Fuji question....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden
>>> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3342668&i=0&by-user=t>
>>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Dean Del Ponte,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for writing and suggestion. Do you know how/where to get
>>>> the download statistics for Groovy and for Grails?
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Chee Kin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 8:57 PM, Dean Del Ponte-2 [via Grails] <[hidden
>>>> email]
>>>> <http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3342639&i=0&by-user=t>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> There are no reliable numbers at this point.  You would just be
>>>>> guessing.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to stick to facts I'd say that the total number of Java
>>>>> developers are all potential Groovy/Grails programmers.
>>>>>
>>>>> You can probably also get the download statistics for Groovy and for
>>>>> Grails.  This will give you a sense of their popularity/uptake.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Dean Del Ponte
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden
>>>>> email]<http://user/SendEmail.jtp?type=node&node=3341295&i=0&by-user=t>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I found this number 9,007,346 for Java Developers at
>>>>>> http://www.numberof.net/number-of-java-developers/.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Let's say 1% of Java Developer is Grails Developer 90,073, do you think
>>>>>> this
>>>>>> number making any sense?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>> Chee Kin
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> View this message in context:
>>>>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3340739.html<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3340739.html?by-user=t&by-user=t&by-user=t>
>>>>>> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> If you reply to this email, your message will be added to the
>>>>> discussion below:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3341295.html<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3341295.html?by-user=t&by-user=t>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> View this message in context: Re: How many Grails Developer
>>>> globally?<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3342639.html?by-user=t>
>>>>
>>>> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list
>>>> archive<http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Grails-user-f1312389.html?by-user=t>at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
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[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi there!

I just drop a message to Burt. Let's see how his response.

Best regards,
Chee Kin

[burtbeckwith]

Guillaume is the person to ask, he watches stats like download counts, etc. The last I saw it was 70k/month and is probably higher now: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Download-Numbers-td1374528.html

But I don't know what to make of a number like that. I know larger places will download the distro and throw it on a network drive, which under-represents the count. I work on 3 machines so I over-represent by triple-downloading because I'm lazy.

And Maven users download individual jars (http://repo2.maven.org/maven2/org/grails/) so those numbers also skew things.

I don't think mailing list traffic or stackoverflow question rates are usable either - that's going to be more of an indicator of how confusing things are or how high or low the skill sets of new developers are (e.g. it may be the case that Rails developers tend to be very skill-deprived, so they'll ask more questions and make the community seem more vibrant).

Burt

> Hi there!
>
> I just drop a message to Burt. Let's see how his response.
>
> Best regards,
> Chee Kin
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3342755.html
> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[Roshan Dawrani]

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Burt Beckwith <[hidden email]> wrote:

 (e.g. it may be the case that Rails developers tend to be very skill-deprived

:-) Really? 

[burtbeckwith]

I said 'may' :)

Burt

> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Burt Beckwith <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> >
> >  (e.g. it may be the case that Rails developers tend to be very
> > skill-deprived
> >
>
> :-) Really?
>

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[smaldini]

Funny :D

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 6:58 AM, Burt Beckwith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I said 'may' :)

Burt

> On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 11:19 AM, Burt Beckwith <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
> >
> >  (e.g. it may be the case that Rails developers tend to be very
> > skill-deprived
> >
>
> :-) Really?
>

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[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi Burt

Thanks for quick response.

The estimated number (90,073) I written previously seems to be a reasonable number.

I just drop a message to Guillaume. Let's see how his response.

Thank you very much!

Best regards,
Chee Kin

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 1:50 PM, burtbeckwith [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

Guillaume is the person to ask, he watches stats like download counts, etc. The last I saw it was 70k/month and is probably higher now: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Download-Numbers-td1374528.html

But I don't know what to make of a number like that. I know larger places will download the distro and throw it on a network drive, which under-represents the count. I work on 3 machines so I over-represent by triple-downloading because I'm lazy.

And Maven users download individual jars (http://repo2.maven.org/maven2/org/grails/) so those numbers also skew things.

I don't think mailing list traffic or stackoverflow question rates are usable either - that's going to be more of an indicator of how confusing things are or how high or low the skill sets of new developers are (e.g. it may be the case that Rails developers tend to be very skill-deprived, so they'll ask more questions and make the community seem more vibrant).

Burt

> Hi there!
>
> I just drop a message to Burt. Let's see how his response.
>
> Best regards,
> Chee Kin
>

> --
> View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/How-many-Grails-Developer-globally-tp3338389p3342755.html

> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi there,

I re-post the response from Guillaume below. Hm...., still unable to get the download stats of Grails, anyone from SpringSource offer me your hands? Thanks in advance. Note: Should be slide 7 instead of 4.

--------------------------------
Hi,

On this presentation I've given a few months ago, I showed a graph
with the latest figures I had for Groovy:
http://www.slideshare.net/glaforge/groovy-state-of-the-union-groovy-grails-exchange-2010-guillaume-laforge-6190839
Check slide 4.
We've got an average of 100K+ per month, and peaks up to 185K in a
month for the major release of Groovy 1.7.
But it doesn't count Maven Central downloads unfortunately :-(

I don't have recent figures for Grails, but back when I had some,
Grails was usually as much if not more downloaded than Groovy.
So you can expect numbers in that range, or twice as much, probably.
The Grails developers may have more information on those numbers than me.

And generally speaking, other indicators like job postings, and such,
are usually increasing, showing that the adoption continues for both
projects.

So the conclusion is that both Groovy and Grails are pretty successful :-)

Hope this helps,

Guillaume

[pledbrook]

> I re-post the response from Guillaume below. Hm...., still unable to get the
> download stats of Grails, anyone from SpringSource offer me your hands?
> Thanks in advance. Note: Should be slide 7 instead of 4.

We only started collecting download statistics again when Grails 1.3.6
was released last December, so we can't read much into them at the
moment. And as Burt and Guillaume said, we don't catch users that get
the Grails JARs from Maven Central or elsewhere. We're looking forward
to more indicative numbers with the collection of usage data in Grails
1.4 - that will enable us to have a much better idea of how many
Grails users there are.

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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[Lim Chee Kin]

Hi Peter,

Thanks for writing. So, I will take 100K Grails developers globally as an estimation for time-being, do you think this number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 9:44 PM, pledbrook [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I re-post the response from Guillaume below. Hm...., still unable to get the
> download stats of Grails, anyone from SpringSource offer me your hands?
> Thanks in advance. Note: Should be slide 7 instead of 4.

We only started collecting download statistics again when Grails 1.3.6
was released last December, so we can't read much into them at the
moment. And as Burt and Guillaume said, we don't catch users that get
the Grails JARs from Maven Central or elsewhere. We're looking forward
to more indicative numbers with the collection of usage data in Grails
1.4 - that will enable us to have a much better idea of how many
Grails users there are.

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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[JamesPage]

There are  3,712 Grails devs in Linkedin and 570,020 Java. 

Could you extrapolate from your 9 million of Java Devs. Which would give you 55,000

James

On 9 March 2011 15:31, Lim Chee Kin <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Peter,

Thanks for writing. So, I will take 100K Grails developers globally as an estimation for time-being, do you think this number making any sense?

Best regards,
Chee Kin

On Wed, Mar 9, 2011 at 9:44 PM, pledbrook [via Grails] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I re-post the response from Guillaume below. Hm...., still unable to get the
> download stats of Grails, anyone from SpringSource offer me your hands?
> Thanks in advance. Note: Should be slide 7 instead of 4.

We only started collecting download statistics again when Grails 1.3.6
was released last December, so we can't read much into them at the
moment. And as Burt and Guillaume said, we don't catch users that get
the Grails JARs from Maven Central or elsewhere. We're looking forward
to more indicative numbers with the collection of usage data in Grails
1.4 - that will enable us to have a much better idea of how many
Grails users there are.

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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[pledbrook]

> Thanks for writing. So, I will take 100K Grails developers globally as an
> estimation for time-being, do you think this number making any sense?

We don't have enough data to provide even an educated guess I think.
Getting that data is a crucial goal for this year. So pretty much any
number is a complete guess. Sorry.

Peter

--
Peter Ledbrook
Grails Advocate
SpringSource - A Division of VMware

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