Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Previous Topic Next Topic
 
classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
26 messages Options
12
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

fabien7474
Hi all,

I know that this kind of thread has already been discussed in this forum, but it seems to me that Grails adoption is not getting better for the last two years, not to say worst.

Don't get me wrong : I am a huge fan of Grails and I am looking everyday for job openings (either as an intern or freelancer) requiring Grails developer skills. However, living in Geneva area, I see rarely a job description fitting my expectations...and when it happens, there are tons of candidates for one single position as opposite with Java/Spring/JEE jobs.

When I look at the jobs trends, the graph does not convince me to invest in this technology for increasing my own market value (even if I have fun with it). Also, Mark Palmer experience difficulties to monetize his plugins show me that the market is very small.

So my question is simple, is there any chance that one day, the IT market will massively adopt this awesome web full-stack framework like Spring OR will Grails be always a niche technology that you cannot really count on it to make a living (except if you are lucky likewise 0,1% of developers out there)

Any positive signs are welcomed :),

Fabien.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

ondrej-kvasnovsky
Hi, 

:) maybe try other professional area http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=god%2C+grails&l= ? 

I think, if you are, and you certainly are, a great developer, you will find a great job almost everywhere. No matter if you are Grails or JEE or whatever specialist. 

I am not sure whether your question is answerable.

Best wishes,
Ondrej K. 


On 28. 8. 2013, at 15:04, fabien7474 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I know that this kind of thread has already been discussed in this forum,
but it seems to me that Grails adoption is not getting better for the last
two years, not to say worst.

Don't get me wrong : I am a huge fan of Grails and I am looking everyday for
job openings (either as an intern or freelancer) requiring Grails developer
skills. However, living in Geneva area, I see rarely a job description
fitting my expectations...and when it happens, there are tons of candidates
for one single position as opposite with Java/Spring/JEE jobs.

When I look at the  jobs trends
<http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2C+rails%2C+hadoop%2C+mongodb&l=>
, the graph does not convince me to invest in this technology for increasing
my own market value (even if I have fun with it). Also, Mark Palmer
experience difficulties to monetize his plugins show me that the market is
very small.

So my question is simple, is there any chance that one day, the IT market
will massively adopt this awesome web full-stack framework like Spring OR
will Grails be always a niche technology that you cannot really count on it
to make a living (except if you are lucky likewise 0,1% of developers out
there)

Any positive signs are welcomed :),

Fabien.



--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Sebastian Gozin
There are plenty jobs which will have you use some form of Groovy, Grails, Scala, Play, Ruby, etc…
They are just not advertised as being a <insert my favorite toy here> shop.

Europe is not the US so there's not a whole lot of Ruby shops in comparison. And I'm guessing that is mostly how things are. US has lot's of Ruby, EU has .NET and Java. Everything else is either rare or used in conjunction with the major technology stack in use on the market.

On 28 Aug 2013, at 16:04, Ondrej Kvasnovsky <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, 

:) maybe try other professional area http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=god%2C+grails&l= ? 

I think, if you are, and you certainly are, a great developer, you will find a great job almost everywhere. No matter if you are Grails or JEE or whatever specialist. 

I am not sure whether your question is answerable.

Best wishes,
Ondrej K. 


On 28. 8. 2013, at 15:04, fabien7474 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I know that this kind of thread has already been discussed in this forum,
but it seems to me that Grails adoption is not getting better for the last
two years, not to say worst.

Don't get me wrong : I am a huge fan of Grails and I am looking everyday for
job openings (either as an intern or freelancer) requiring Grails developer
skills. However, living in Geneva area, I see rarely a job description
fitting my expectations...and when it happens, there are tons of candidates
for one single position as opposite with Java/Spring/JEE jobs.

When I look at the  jobs trends
<http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2C+rails%2C+hadoop%2C+mongodb&l=>
, the graph does not convince me to invest in this technology for increasing
my own market value (even if I have fun with it). Also, Mark Palmer
experience difficulties to monetize his plugins show me that the market is
very small.

So my question is simple, is there any chance that one day, the IT market
will massively adopt this awesome web full-stack framework like Spring OR
will Grails be always a niche technology that you cannot really count on it
to make a living (except if you are lucky likewise 0,1% of developers out
there)

Any positive signs are welcomed :),

Fabien.



--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email




Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

longwa
My experience is that many shops which are Java or J2EE are slowly converting to more rapid development frameworks like Grails and Rails. The Java shops, like mine, tend towards Grails b/c it makes the transition easier. Many times they start with Groovy in the testing area and work from there once the power of the language is demonstrated.

My opinion is that those places typically start out leveraging their existing team, in which Grails is a natural fit, and then will hire for Grails through normal attrition. My personal experience is that we are still at the beginning of that trend and I personally know of several companies in this area (mine included) which are undergoing this process. Perhaps the demand for Grails will increase as that trend continues and more legacy J2EE code is ported to Grails.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are plenty jobs which will have you use some form of Groovy, Grails, Scala, Play, Ruby, etc…
They are just not advertised as being a <insert my favorite toy here> shop.

Europe is not the US so there's not a whole lot of Ruby shops in comparison. And I'm guessing that is mostly how things are. US has lot's of Ruby, EU has .NET and Java. Everything else is either rare or used in conjunction with the major technology stack in use on the market.

On 28 Aug 2013, at 16:04, Ondrej Kvasnovsky <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, 

:) maybe try other professional area http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=god%2C+grails&l= ? 

I think, if you are, and you certainly are, a great developer, you will find a great job almost everywhere. No matter if you are Grails or JEE or whatever specialist. 

I am not sure whether your question is answerable.

Best wishes,
Ondrej K. 


On 28. 8. 2013, at 15:04, fabien7474 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I know that this kind of thread has already been discussed in this forum,
but it seems to me that Grails adoption is not getting better for the last
two years, not to say worst.

Don't get me wrong : I am a huge fan of Grails and I am looking everyday for
job openings (either as an intern or freelancer) requiring Grails developer
skills. However, living in Geneva area, I see rarely a job description
fitting my expectations...and when it happens, there are tons of candidates
for one single position as opposite with Java/Spring/JEE jobs.

When I look at the  jobs trends
<http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2C+rails%2C+hadoop%2C+mongodb&l=>
, the graph does not convince me to invest in this technology for increasing
my own market value (even if I have fun with it). Also, Mark Palmer
experience difficulties to monetize his plugins show me that the market is
very small.

So my question is simple, is there any chance that one day, the IT market
will massively adopt this awesome web full-stack framework like Spring OR
will Grails be always a niche technology that you cannot really count on it
to make a living (except if you are lucky likewise 0,1% of developers out
there)

Any positive signs are welcomed :),

Fabien.



--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Sebastian Gozin
I don't expect the demand for Grails to increase unless Grails can shed a lot of it's bulk. Yes, it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still. If you then add osgi to the mix then even Grails current minor advantage of being able to reload some resources is dropping.
 
On 28 Aug 2013, at 18:47, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

My experience is that many shops which are Java or J2EE are slowly converting to more rapid development frameworks like Grails and Rails. The Java shops, like mine, tend towards Grails b/c it makes the transition easier. Many times they start with Groovy in the testing area and work from there once the power of the language is demonstrated.

My opinion is that those places typically start out leveraging their existing team, in which Grails is a natural fit, and then will hire for Grails through normal attrition. My personal experience is that we are still at the beginning of that trend and I personally know of several companies in this area (mine included) which are undergoing this process. Perhaps the demand for Grails will increase as that trend continues and more legacy J2EE code is ported to Grails.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are plenty jobs which will have you use some form of Groovy, Grails, Scala, Play, Ruby, etc…
They are just not advertised as being a <insert my favorite toy here> shop.

Europe is not the US so there's not a whole lot of Ruby shops in comparison. And I'm guessing that is mostly how things are. US has lot's of Ruby, EU has .NET and Java. Everything else is either rare or used in conjunction with the major technology stack in use on the market.

On 28 Aug 2013, at 16:04, Ondrej Kvasnovsky <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, 

:) maybe try other professional area http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=god%2C+grails&l= ? 

I think, if you are, and you certainly are, a great developer, you will find a great job almost everywhere. No matter if you are Grails or JEE or whatever specialist. 

I am not sure whether your question is answerable.

Best wishes,
Ondrej K. 


On 28. 8. 2013, at 15:04, fabien7474 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I know that this kind of thread has already been discussed in this forum,
but it seems to me that Grails adoption is not getting better for the last
two years, not to say worst.

Don't get me wrong : I am a huge fan of Grails and I am looking everyday for
job openings (either as an intern or freelancer) requiring Grails developer
skills. However, living in Geneva area, I see rarely a job description
fitting my expectations...and when it happens, there are tons of candidates
for one single position as opposite with Java/Spring/JEE jobs.

When I look at the  jobs trends
<http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2C+rails%2C+hadoop%2C+mongodb&l=>
, the graph does not convince me to invest in this technology for increasing
my own market value (even if I have fun with it). Also, Mark Palmer
experience difficulties to monetize his plugins show me that the market is
very small.

So my question is simple, is there any chance that one day, the IT market
will massively adopt this awesome web full-stack framework like Spring OR
will Grails be always a niche technology that you cannot really count on it
to make a living (except if you are lucky likewise 0,1% of developers out
there)

Any positive signs are welcomed :),

Fabien.



--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email






Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Jeff Scott Brown



On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't expect the demand for Grails to increase unless Grails can shed a lot of it's bulk. 

But it has increased, and is increasing.



JSB 

--
Jeff Scott Brown
[hidden email]

Autism Strikes 1 in 166
Find The Cause ~ Find The Cure
http://www.autismspeaks.org/
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Tom Bray
In reply to this post by longwa
That's exactly what's happening at my company. We hired two Grails trainers a few weeks ago to come in to do a crash course for ~20 members of our team, including Java devs, UI, QA, DBA, and management folks. Now we're in the process of porting all of our legacy code and our DBA and QA guys are writing their own tools in Grails. It has been a quick and painless procedure. I suspect that lots of other Java shops will go down the same path eventually. 

I'd say our biggest disappointment so far has been that some of the plugins we want to use aren't compatible with the latest versions of Grails and haven't been maintained. I'm thinking of weceem in particular.

-Tom

On Aug 28, 2013, at 9:47 AM, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

My experience is that many shops which are Java or J2EE are slowly converting to more rapid development frameworks like Grails and Rails. The Java shops, like mine, tend towards Grails b/c it makes the transition easier. Many times they start with Groovy in the testing area and work from there once the power of the language is demonstrated.

My opinion is that those places typically start out leveraging their existing team, in which Grails is a natural fit, and then will hire for Grails through normal attrition. My personal experience is that we are still at the beginning of that trend and I personally know of several companies in this area (mine included) which are undergoing this process. Perhaps the demand for Grails will increase as that trend continues and more legacy J2EE code is ported to Grails.


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 10:26 AM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
There are plenty jobs which will have you use some form of Groovy, Grails, Scala, Play, Ruby, etc…
They are just not advertised as being a <insert my favorite toy here> shop.

Europe is not the US so there's not a whole lot of Ruby shops in comparison. And I'm guessing that is mostly how things are. US has lot's of Ruby, EU has .NET and Java. Everything else is either rare or used in conjunction with the major technology stack in use on the market.

On 28 Aug 2013, at 16:04, Ondrej Kvasnovsky <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, 

:) maybe try other professional area http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=god%2C+grails&l= ? 

I think, if you are, and you certainly are, a great developer, you will find a great job almost everywhere. No matter if you are Grails or JEE or whatever specialist. 

I am not sure whether your question is answerable.

Best wishes,
Ondrej K. 


On 28. 8. 2013, at 15:04, fabien7474 <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi all,

I know that this kind of thread has already been discussed in this forum,
but it seems to me that Grails adoption is not getting better for the last
two years, not to say worst.

Don't get me wrong : I am a huge fan of Grails and I am looking everyday for
job openings (either as an intern or freelancer) requiring Grails developer
skills. However, living in Geneva area, I see rarely a job description
fitting my expectations...and when it happens, there are tons of candidates
for one single position as opposite with Java/Spring/JEE jobs.

When I look at the  jobs trends
<<a href="http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2C&#43;rails%2C&#43;hadoop%2C&#43;mongodb&amp;l=" target="_blank">http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=grails%2C+rails%2C+hadoop%2C+mongodb&l=>
, the graph does not convince me to invest in this technology for increasing
my own market value (even if I have fun with it). Also, Mark Palmer
experience difficulties to monetize his plugins show me that the market is
very small.

So my question is simple, is there any chance that one day, the IT market
will massively adopt this awesome web full-stack framework like Spring OR
will Grails be always a niche technology that you cannot really count on it
to make a living (except if you are lucky likewise 0,1% of developers out
there)

Any positive signs are welcomed :),

Fabien.



--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email






Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Eric MacAdie
In reply to this post by Jeff Scott Brown
So what parts of Grails are causing the bulk?

- Eric MacAdie



On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Jeff Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:



On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 3:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
I don't expect the demand for Grails to increase unless Grails can shed a lot of it's bulk. 

But it has increased, and is increasing.



JSB 

--
Jeff Scott Brown
[hidden email]

Autism Strikes 1 in 166
Find The Cause ~ Find The Cure
http://www.autismspeaks.org/

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

longwa
In reply to this post by Sebastian Gozin

On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly not a golden hammer.

The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls, security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any legacy internal codebases.

The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but more just corporate politics.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Sebastian Gozin
I'm well aware of how Grails does not compare to jaxrs/javascript and does compare to Rails somewhat.
And that's my point, even Rails is losing to these more nimble approaches to web development which are coming up.
As you said. The concern with Grails (and Rails) is with deployment.

The cause is indeed the choice of building on the existing J2EE stack with Spring in the mix. It is this stack which is no longer all that interesting and you see more and more vendors move towards an osgi based stack. Though I don't feel J2EE containers are really benefitting from it so long as they stick with the war/ear file based distribution model. Personally I find containers like Apache Karaf provide a much nicer approach as you can just deploy some jar files with a few business objects, rest endpoints and persistence gateways in them. If you then use javascript to bridge the web io layer then everything is really small and much easier to change in isolation of one another. And I do want this because now I'm a bottle neck when colleagues want to work on the UI layer but I must also package and deploy the whole Grails app which takes considerably longer than uploading a few html files.

Granted either side of the fence is currently a bit daunting. I suspect Grails looks easier to pick up to most people. I just believe things will evolve away from big monolithic deployments.
FWIW, I do believe you can do some similar things in Grails with external view templates and plugins.

Cheers,
Sebastian

On 29 Aug 2013, at 13:49, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly not a golden hammer.

The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls, security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any legacy internal codebases.

The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but more just corporate politics.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Dean Del Ponte-2
In reply to this post by longwa
I've been using Grails for 5+ years.

It's my unscientific opinion that Grails adoption is growing, just maybe slower than I'd like.

The number of jobs looking specifically for Grails developers, although small, continues to grow.

Conference attendance also seems to increase every year.

- Dean


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <[hidden email]> wrote:
it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly not a golden hammer.

The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls, security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any legacy internal codebases.

The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but more just corporate politics.

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

dburns
We have been using Grails since 2009 and have built several enterprise
applications over the years.   We were (and still are) a java shop but have
chosen Grails to be the platform of choice as we move forward.   We have a
mix of experienced Java developers and newbies as well and both find it a
pleasure to work with.   It has been great for quickly cranking out RESTful
services as well.

Our biggest hurdles have been:

1)  Grails apps compatibility with Websphere.  We have to jump through
hoops to get them to work many times.    We are considering deploying just
our Grails apps to Tomcat in the future.
2)  Plugin incompatibility over releases....but that is to be expected and
we simply work through it.
3)  Bulkiness of the war files....our administrator loathes this so we have
dabbled with skinny wars with some success

Jobs in our area are fairly plentiful and when attending conferences I have
found much enthusiasm and attendance at such events encouraging.





From: Dean Del Ponte <[hidden email]>
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: 08/29/2013 08:27 AM
Subject: Re: [grails-user] Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?



I've been using Grails for 5+ years.

It's my unscientific opinion that Grails adoption is growing, just maybe
slower than I'd like.

The number of jobs looking specifically for Grails developers, although
small, continues to grow.

Conference attendance also seems to increase every year.

- Dean


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

  On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <
  [hidden email]> wrote:
   it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based
   solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

  I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails
  is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the
  framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the
  framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to
  write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and
  other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a
  full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You
  should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly
  not a golden hammer.

  The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top
  of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are
  the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large
  enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls,
  security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you
  get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any
  legacy internal codebases.

  The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but
  more just corporate politics.



*********************************************************************************************
This email message and any attachments is for use only by the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential, privileged and/or proprietary information.  If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete and destroy the message and all copies.  All unauthorized direct or indirect use or disclosure of this message is strictly prohibited.  No right to confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission.
*********************************************************************************************

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email


Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Roberto Guerra
I agree with Sebastian on the direction that web development is going. There are some frameworks out there that are a reflection of this. The most recent release of Pedestal is a clear example. They have a back-end version and a front-end version. It is also very composable, so you can just put together the parts you want to use. For front-end development in the web, you can't beat Javascript. Trying all these hacks that frameworks have used just adds unneeded cruft. The Javascript tooling is much more superior for front-end dev than what currently exists in any framework (or that might exist in the future). So yeah, I would like to see Grails shed some weight. Sometimes not even hibernate is needed, especially if you are using something like MongoDB. If the system has a good modular architecture, the web framework then has much less to do. All you would need to do is just wire the pieces together so the framework knows where to delegate requests.

Please don't mis-interpret what I'm saying. I'm not hating on Grails. It is my framework of choice, and I want to see it improve. If I didn't care about it I wouldn't bother expressing my ideas about it. Currently all frameworks are struggling. If you follow the Rails community you will also hear some similar complaints about the asset-pipeline, front-end development, ActiveRecord, etc. And you will also see some Javascript tools that have been built by people in the Rails community that are not happy with the current state of front-end development there: eg. linemanjs.


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:46 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
We have been using Grails since 2009 and have built several enterprise
applications over the years.   We were (and still are) a java shop but have
chosen Grails to be the platform of choice as we move forward.   We have a
mix of experienced Java developers and newbies as well and both find it a
pleasure to work with.   It has been great for quickly cranking out RESTful
services as well.

Our biggest hurdles have been:

1)  Grails apps compatibility with Websphere.  We have to jump through
hoops to get them to work many times.    We are considering deploying just
our Grails apps to Tomcat in the future.
2)  Plugin incompatibility over releases....but that is to be expected and
we simply work through it.
3)  Bulkiness of the war files....our administrator loathes this so we have
dabbled with skinny wars with some success

Jobs in our area are fairly plentiful and when attending conferences I have
found much enthusiasm and attendance at such events encouraging.





From:   Dean Del Ponte <[hidden email]>
To:     "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date:   08/29/2013 08:27 AM
Subject:        Re: [grails-user] Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?



I've been using Grails for 5+ years.

It's my unscientific opinion that Grails adoption is growing, just maybe
slower than I'd like.

The number of jobs looking specifically for Grails developers, although
small, continues to grow.

Conference attendance also seems to increase every year.

- Dean


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

  On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <
  [hidden email]> wrote:
   it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based
   solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

  I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails
  is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the
  framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the
  framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to
  write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and
  other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a
  full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You
  should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly
  not a golden hammer.

  The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top
  of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are
  the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large
  enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls,
  security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you
  get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any
  legacy internal codebases.

  The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but
  more just corporate politics.



*********************************************************************************************
This email message and any attachments is for use only by the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential, privileged and/or proprietary information.  If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete and destroy the message and all copies.  All unauthorized direct or indirect use or disclosure of this message is strictly prohibited.  No right to confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission.
*********************************************************************************************

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





--
Color me impractical but I’d rather be able to look at myself in the mirror than be rich.
-Evan Light
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Sebastian Gozin
Much like Roberto I don't mean to imply Grails is bad. I use it in production extensively. I also honestly expect to move away from it within a year the way things are moving right now.

On 29 Aug 2013, at 15:30, Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:

I agree with Sebastian on the direction that web development is going. There are some frameworks out there that are a reflection of this. The most recent release of Pedestal is a clear example. They have a back-end version and a front-end version. It is also very composable, so you can just put together the parts you want to use. For front-end development in the web, you can't beat Javascript. Trying all these hacks that frameworks have used just adds unneeded cruft. The Javascript tooling is much more superior for front-end dev than what currently exists in any framework (or that might exist in the future). So yeah, I would like to see Grails shed some weight. Sometimes not even hibernate is needed, especially if you are using something like MongoDB. If the system has a good modular architecture, the web framework then has much less to do. All you would need to do is just wire the pieces together so the framework knows where to delegate requests.

Please don't mis-interpret what I'm saying. I'm not hating on Grails. It is my framework of choice, and I want to see it improve. If I didn't care about it I wouldn't bother expressing my ideas about it. Currently all frameworks are struggling. If you follow the Rails community you will also hear some similar complaints about the asset-pipeline, front-end development, ActiveRecord, etc. And you will also see some Javascript tools that have been built by people in the Rails community that are not happy with the current state of front-end development there: eg. linemanjs.


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:46 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
We have been using Grails since 2009 and have built several enterprise
applications over the years.   We were (and still are) a java shop but have
chosen Grails to be the platform of choice as we move forward.   We have a
mix of experienced Java developers and newbies as well and both find it a
pleasure to work with.   It has been great for quickly cranking out RESTful
services as well.

Our biggest hurdles have been:

1)  Grails apps compatibility with Websphere.  We have to jump through
hoops to get them to work many times.    We are considering deploying just
our Grails apps to Tomcat in the future.
2)  Plugin incompatibility over releases....but that is to be expected and
we simply work through it.
3)  Bulkiness of the war files....our administrator loathes this so we have
dabbled with skinny wars with some success

Jobs in our area are fairly plentiful and when attending conferences I have
found much enthusiasm and attendance at such events encouraging.





From:   Dean Del Ponte <[hidden email]>
To:     "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date:   08/29/2013 08:27 AM
Subject:        Re: [grails-user] Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?



I've been using Grails for 5+ years.

It's my unscientific opinion that Grails adoption is growing, just maybe
slower than I'd like.

The number of jobs looking specifically for Grails developers, although
small, continues to grow.

Conference attendance also seems to increase every year.

- Dean


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

  On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <
  [hidden email]> wrote:
   it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based
   solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

  I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails
  is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the
  framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the
  framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to
  write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and
  other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a
  full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You
  should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly
  not a golden hammer.

  The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top
  of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are
  the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large
  enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls,
  security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you
  get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any
  legacy internal codebases.

  The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but
  more just corporate politics.



*********************************************************************************************
This email message and any attachments is for use only by the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential, privileged and/or proprietary information.  If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete and destroy the message and all copies.  All unauthorized direct or indirect use or disclosure of this message is strictly prohibited.  No right to confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission.
*********************************************************************************************

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





--
Color me impractical but I’d rather be able to look at myself in the mirror than be rich.
-Evan Light

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

sergiomichels
In reply to this post by Roberto Guerra
Some folks posted about this recently (months ago). For example Peter Ledbrook: http://www.cacoethes.co.uk/blog/groovyandgrails/where-next-for-grails and it had some replies like http://www.simplicityitself.com/article/future-of-grails

--
Sérgio Michels


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 10:30 AM, Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:
I agree with Sebastian on the direction that web development is going. There are some frameworks out there that are a reflection of this. The most recent release of Pedestal is a clear example. They have a back-end version and a front-end version. It is also very composable, so you can just put together the parts you want to use. For front-end development in the web, you can't beat Javascript. Trying all these hacks that frameworks have used just adds unneeded cruft. The Javascript tooling is much more superior for front-end dev than what currently exists in any framework (or that might exist in the future). So yeah, I would like to see Grails shed some weight. Sometimes not even hibernate is needed, especially if you are using something like MongoDB. If the system has a good modular architecture, the web framework then has much less to do. All you would need to do is just wire the pieces together so the framework knows where to delegate requests.

Please don't mis-interpret what I'm saying. I'm not hating on Grails. It is my framework of choice, and I want to see it improve. If I didn't care about it I wouldn't bother expressing my ideas about it. Currently all frameworks are struggling. If you follow the Rails community you will also hear some similar complaints about the asset-pipeline, front-end development, ActiveRecord, etc. And you will also see some Javascript tools that have been built by people in the Rails community that are not happy with the current state of front-end development there: eg. linemanjs.


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:46 AM, <[hidden email]> wrote:
We have been using Grails since 2009 and have built several enterprise
applications over the years.   We were (and still are) a java shop but have
chosen Grails to be the platform of choice as we move forward.   We have a
mix of experienced Java developers and newbies as well and both find it a
pleasure to work with.   It has been great for quickly cranking out RESTful
services as well.

Our biggest hurdles have been:

1)  Grails apps compatibility with Websphere.  We have to jump through
hoops to get them to work many times.    We are considering deploying just
our Grails apps to Tomcat in the future.
2)  Plugin incompatibility over releases....but that is to be expected and
we simply work through it.
3)  Bulkiness of the war files....our administrator loathes this so we have
dabbled with skinny wars with some success

Jobs in our area are fairly plentiful and when attending conferences I have
found much enthusiasm and attendance at such events encouraging.





From:   Dean Del Ponte <[hidden email]>
To:     "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date:   08/29/2013 08:27 AM
Subject:        Re: [grails-user] Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?



I've been using Grails for 5+ years.

It's my unscientific opinion that Grails adoption is growing, just maybe
slower than I'd like.

The number of jobs looking specifically for Grails developers, although
small, continues to grow.

Conference attendance also seems to increase every year.

- Dean


On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 6:49 AM, Aaron Long <[hidden email]> wrote:

  On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 4:23 PM, Sebastian Gozin <
  [hidden email]> wrote:
   it's nicer than traditional J2EE development. But jaxrs/javascript based
   solutions are considerably nicer to build and use still

  I'm not sure I see how that is comparable to Grails. The bulk of Grails
  is mostly hidden from a usage and API standpoint. The size of the
  framework is more of a concern for deployment and maintenance for the
  framework itself. From a usage standpoint, the amount of code required to
  write a controller, domain, etc. is pretty much on par with Rails and
  other modern frameworks. Not to mention that jaxrs/javascript isn't a
  full stack solution so obviously it will be smaller and more nimble. You
  should use whatever works best for your situation, Grails is certainly
  not a golden hammer.

  The bulk is caused by the fact that's it's a large abstraction over top
  of existing Java tech, which is already bulky. Spring  and Hibernate are
  the main offenders here. But those aren't wasted bytes. For a large
  enterprise application which needs scheduling, transactional controls,
  security, etc. you get a fair amount of bang for the buck. Moreover, you
  get practically seamless integration with existing Java libraries and any
  legacy internal codebases.

  The main thing holding Grails back, IMO, isn't a technical problem but
  more just corporate politics.



*********************************************************************************************
This email message and any attachments is for use only by the named addressee(s) and may contain confidential, privileged and/or proprietary information.  If you have received this message in error, please immediately notify the sender and delete and destroy the message and all copies.  All unauthorized direct or indirect use or disclosure of this message is strictly prohibited.  No right to confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost by any error in transmission.
*********************************************************************************************

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





--
Color me impractical but I’d rather be able to look at myself in the mirror than be rich.
-Evan Light

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

olavgg
I've been using Grails since the 0.4.2 days, and I've had a very pleasant journey through all these years with Grails. Documentation has always been awesome, and most bugs has been quickly fixed. I developed a tenfold of professional applications, including some with over 100 domain classes.

I also do some web development with Python. Currently Django and Flask are the hot tools of choice. Those frameworks are great, however Grails is way more polished than those two. Django especially isn't a very consistent framework which requires a lot of time to keep your code base upgradeable. Flask on the other hand is very consistent, but it is a micro framework. Which requires extra work as you have to find the components you want to use to have a more complete framework (and in some cases this is a strength/good thing).

While Python is a fantastic programming language, and some of the web frameworks are certainly quite good. They all seem to have a problem when the code base becomes large and complex and is supposed to be maintained for several years. Just take a look on the complexity involved converting Python2 code to Python3 today.

For 6 years with Grails, there is one important thing that I never have had to spend much time on. Upgrading Grails.....
The biggest application that I developed with Grails, was implemented with Grails 1.0. There was no problem upgrading it all the way up till 1.3.7. 3 months ago I decided to upgrade it from 1.3.7 to 2.2.0. And the time I spent to complete the upgrade process and fix some minor errors was less than a hour.

Grails has been very consistent through all these years. No redesign of the framework has happened, something we are very grateful for! I think Grails absolutely has proven that it is a very mature framework .
And I've seen so many other teams struggle with keeping their code base up to date, because they chose a framework which refactored their code base for each update.

Though the question is about why so few use Grails. One thing is certainly that many still see Grails as something new and as something that still needs more time to mature. Those people say the same thing about Ruby on Rails, which is now over 9 years old!

Another thing is Groovy, I've heard it so many times now....some people are very resistant to learning a new language. They believe Groovy is quite exotic and takes some time to learn, even if they know Java very well. So when I mention Grails, they think it is a Groovy based web framework and that Java isn't an available option.

That sad thing though, I spent a lot of time advocating for Grails a few years ago. Today I don't bother, because I know that most people are unwilling to even take a look. Though, Grails is still my favorite web development framework and I mostly chose Grails over Django or Flask. In most of those cases I've not chosen Grails, it has been because the team I worked with only knew Python.
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

kktec1
For what it's worth, I am relatively new to developing Java platform webapps with Grails though not new to Groovy.

I have a lot of experience and expertise with Spring MVC dating back to v0.8 and have done Java webapps with every major version. I also have lots of experience with Spring Security dating back to Acegi. I also have some experience with Hibernate though I am not expert on it.

Although I have been interested in Grails and played around with it a fair bit, the main thing that held me back from adopting Grails, aside from the oirganizations I've worked for, was its poor support for a TDD approach where tests must run fast to give quick feedback.

That changed dramatically with Grails2 !!!
Its use of AST transforms to inject behavior into test classes allows me to run most tests quickly in my IDE.

I have now been working with Grails for a little over a year now. Although Grails is a great RAD tool, it does have a learning curve. What I have found is that while climbing this learning curve I have been every bit as productive as I would have been just using Java/Spring/Hibernate. That is pretty amazing IMO. Now that I have gone a fair way up the learning curve, I find that my productivity is much, much higher. Using Spring Security with Grails has been a pleasant experience as well as the plugins work well out of the box, kudos to Burt Beckwith.

I also attended the GR8-US conference the last 2 years and find a great community surrounding the tool.

There is an ultra conservative element in the Java community that seems to think that dynamic typing is dangerous and that static typing is necessary and a way to avoid writing good tests. These people are flat out WRONG and are costing their organizations a lot of wasted time and money. A lot could be gained by biting the bullet and learning how to write good tests and taking advantage of the many benefits dynamic/optional typing offers by adopting Groovy.

So what are you static typing OCD people going to do when you eventually have to write a lot more code  with a dynamic weakly typed language like Javascript ??? This is NOT optional anymore.

Grails is the gateway drug for Groovy as Spock is for TDD.

Change is slow. The largest IT dev group in my area is still using CVS and Struts on most of their projects but they are looking seriously at Git and Grails. There is hope.



Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Roberto Guerra
Yeah, most corporate devs are very conservative. I don't ever want to go back to that environment. My previous job was at the Ministry of Health in my country. They were using Java and Struts. Not even spring. What confused me more was that most of the developers were not even that good at Java, but they wouldn't even consider other languages. I slowly introduced Grails guerilla style. The first project I used grails on was a small ETL tool. I didn't tell my boss I was using grails, I just built and deployed it under a week. And people started using it, oblivious of what I used to build it. They thought I was that good because I was able to deliver the project at a very fast pace. By the time my boss discovered it was some 'non-standard' obscure language called 'Groovy' he throw a tantrum. But the application was already in production and the users were happy. So he couldn't afford to have it re-written in plain Java. I pulled several other tricks like that until he stopped complaining about groovy and grails. By the time I left, the other developers were already using it because they saw how productive I could be with it. Just setting up a greenfield project with Maven would take a day if not two, and with grails it was a matter of minutes. So by the time they had their maven project going, I was already half-way through a project.

So, my point? Don't wait for job vacancies that require any Grails expertise or knowledge. Don't wait for your boss to decide to use Grails or any other RAD framework. Bosses are politicians, they are afraid to take risks, especially in corporate environments. If you want to use Grails, you have to introduce it in your eco-system. Build small utility tools with it that will show your co-workers and supervisors how productive it makes you. Don't expect that they will just decided to write the next big project (or re-write the current big project) with Grails. That won't happen. This is how Linux won the server wars, it is the same blue-print for any other technology.


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:21 PM, kktec1 <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, I am relatively new to developing Java platform webapps
with Grails though not new to Groovy.

I have a lot of experience and expertise with Spring MVC dating back to v0.8
and have done Java webapps with every major version. I also have lots of
experience with Spring Security dating back to Acegi. I also have some
experience with Hibernate though I am not expert on it.

Although I have been interested in Grails and played around with it a fair
bit, the main thing that held me back from adopting Grails, aside from the
oirganizations I've worked for, was its poor support for a TDD approach
where tests must run fast to give quick feedback.

*That changed dramatically with Grails2 !!! *
Its use of AST transforms to inject behavior into test classes allows me to
run most tests quickly in my IDE.

I have now been working with Grails for a little over a year now. Although
Grails is a great RAD tool, it does have a learning curve. *What I have
found is that while climbing this learning curve I have been every bit as
productive as I would have been just using Java/Spring/Hibernate. That is
pretty amazing IMO.* Now that I have gone a fair way up the learning curve,
I find that my productivity is much, much higher. Using Spring Security with
Grails has been a pleasant experience as well as the plugins work well out
of the box, kudos to Burt Beckwith.

I also attended the GR8-US conference the last 2 years and find a great
community surrounding the tool.

There is an ultra conservative element in the Java community that seems to
think that dynamic typing is dangerous and that static typing is necessary
and a way to avoid writing good tests. These people are flat out WRONG and
are costing their organizations a lot of wasted time and money. A lot could
be gained by biting the bullet and learning how to write good tests and
taking advantage of the many benefits dynamic/optional typing offers by
adopting Groovy.

So what are you static typing OCD people going to do when you eventually
have to write a lot more code  with a dynamic weakly typed language like
Javascript ??? This is NOT optional anymore.

Grails is the gateway drug for Groovy as Spock is for TDD.

Change is slow. The largest IT dev group in my area is still using CVS and
Struts on most of their projects but they are looking seriously at Git and
Grails. There is hope.







--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489p4648604.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





--
Color me impractical but I’d rather be able to look at myself in the mirror than be rich.
-Evan Light
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

sergiomichels
Another approach that I read in different places is to start showing the benefits of Groovy in the test environment, your developers will be happy with the productivity and will start to see how much difference from the production Java code it will have.

When they feel confident about Groovy I think that's a matter of time to adopt Grails.

--
Sérgio Michels


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 3:36 PM, Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yeah, most corporate devs are very conservative. I don't ever want to go back to that environment. My previous job was at the Ministry of Health in my country. They were using Java and Struts. Not even spring. What confused me more was that most of the developers were not even that good at Java, but they wouldn't even consider other languages. I slowly introduced Grails guerilla style. The first project I used grails on was a small ETL tool. I didn't tell my boss I was using grails, I just built and deployed it under a week. And people started using it, oblivious of what I used to build it. They thought I was that good because I was able to deliver the project at a very fast pace. By the time my boss discovered it was some 'non-standard' obscure language called 'Groovy' he throw a tantrum. But the application was already in production and the users were happy. So he couldn't afford to have it re-written in plain Java. I pulled several other tricks like that until he stopped complaining about groovy and grails. By the time I left, the other developers were already using it because they saw how productive I could be with it. Just setting up a greenfield project with Maven would take a day if not two, and with grails it was a matter of minutes. So by the time they had their maven project going, I was already half-way through a project.

So, my point? Don't wait for job vacancies that require any Grails expertise or knowledge. Don't wait for your boss to decide to use Grails or any other RAD framework. Bosses are politicians, they are afraid to take risks, especially in corporate environments. If you want to use Grails, you have to introduce it in your eco-system. Build small utility tools with it that will show your co-workers and supervisors how productive it makes you. Don't expect that they will just decided to write the next big project (or re-write the current big project) with Grails. That won't happen. This is how Linux won the server wars, it is the same blue-print for any other technology.


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:21 PM, kktec1 <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, I am relatively new to developing Java platform webapps
with Grails though not new to Groovy.

I have a lot of experience and expertise with Spring MVC dating back to v0.8
and have done Java webapps with every major version. I also have lots of
experience with Spring Security dating back to Acegi. I also have some
experience with Hibernate though I am not expert on it.

Although I have been interested in Grails and played around with it a fair
bit, the main thing that held me back from adopting Grails, aside from the
oirganizations I've worked for, was its poor support for a TDD approach
where tests must run fast to give quick feedback.

*That changed dramatically with Grails2 !!! *
Its use of AST transforms to inject behavior into test classes allows me to
run most tests quickly in my IDE.

I have now been working with Grails for a little over a year now. Although
Grails is a great RAD tool, it does have a learning curve. *What I have
found is that while climbing this learning curve I have been every bit as
productive as I would have been just using Java/Spring/Hibernate. That is
pretty amazing IMO.* Now that I have gone a fair way up the learning curve,
I find that my productivity is much, much higher. Using Spring Security with
Grails has been a pleasant experience as well as the plugins work well out
of the box, kudos to Burt Beckwith.

I also attended the GR8-US conference the last 2 years and find a great
community surrounding the tool.

There is an ultra conservative element in the Java community that seems to
think that dynamic typing is dangerous and that static typing is necessary
and a way to avoid writing good tests. These people are flat out WRONG and
are costing their organizations a lot of wasted time and money. A lot could
be gained by biting the bullet and learning how to write good tests and
taking advantage of the many benefits dynamic/optional typing offers by
adopting Groovy.

So what are you static typing OCD people going to do when you eventually
have to write a lot more code  with a dynamic weakly typed language like
Javascript ??? This is NOT optional anymore.

Grails is the gateway drug for Groovy as Spock is for TDD.

Change is slow. The largest IT dev group in my area is still using CVS and
Struts on most of their projects but they are looking seriously at Git and
Grails. There is hope.







--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489p4648604.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





--
Color me impractical but I’d rather be able to look at myself in the mirror than be rich.
-Evan Light

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Is Grails really being adopted by IT market?

Sebastian Gozin
In reply to this post by Roberto Guerra
You can do this…. with a caveat.

Politics play at many levels, including your co-workers. I'm sure both sides believe they are doing the right thing but if there's disagreement it is easy to be seen or presented as irresponsible. It is extremely difficult to get people onboard in a situation like this.

Personally I think this is related to how we value bravado, charm or even social status over managing risks and the needs of the business.


On 30 Aug 2013, at 20:36, Roberto Guerra <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, most corporate devs are very conservative. I don't ever want to go back to that environment. My previous job was at the Ministry of Health in my country. They were using Java and Struts. Not even spring. What confused me more was that most of the developers were not even that good at Java, but they wouldn't even consider other languages. I slowly introduced Grails guerilla style. The first project I used grails on was a small ETL tool. I didn't tell my boss I was using grails, I just built and deployed it under a week. And people started using it, oblivious of what I used to build it. They thought I was that good because I was able to deliver the project at a very fast pace. By the time my boss discovered it was some 'non-standard' obscure language called 'Groovy' he throw a tantrum. But the application was already in production and the users were happy. So he couldn't afford to have it re-written in plain Java. I pulled several other tricks like that until he stopped complaining about groovy and grails. By the time I left, the other developers were already using it because they saw how productive I could be with it. Just setting up a greenfield project with Maven would take a day if not two, and with grails it was a matter of minutes. So by the time they had their maven project going, I was already half-way through a project.

So, my point? Don't wait for job vacancies that require any Grails expertise or knowledge. Don't wait for your boss to decide to use Grails or any other RAD framework. Bosses are politicians, they are afraid to take risks, especially in corporate environments. If you want to use Grails, you have to introduce it in your eco-system. Build small utility tools with it that will show your co-workers and supervisors how productive it makes you. Don't expect that they will just decided to write the next big project (or re-write the current big project) with Grails. That won't happen. This is how Linux won the server wars, it is the same blue-print for any other technology.


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:21 PM, kktec1 <[hidden email]> wrote:
For what it's worth, I am relatively new to developing Java platform webapps
with Grails though not new to Groovy.

I have a lot of experience and expertise with Spring MVC dating back to v0.8
and have done Java webapps with every major version. I also have lots of
experience with Spring Security dating back to Acegi. I also have some
experience with Hibernate though I am not expert on it.

Although I have been interested in Grails and played around with it a fair
bit, the main thing that held me back from adopting Grails, aside from the
oirganizations I've worked for, was its poor support for a TDD approach
where tests must run fast to give quick feedback.

*That changed dramatically with Grails2 !!! *
Its use of AST transforms to inject behavior into test classes allows me to
run most tests quickly in my IDE.

I have now been working with Grails for a little over a year now. Although
Grails is a great RAD tool, it does have a learning curve. *What I have
found is that while climbing this learning curve I have been every bit as
productive as I would have been just using Java/Spring/Hibernate. That is
pretty amazing IMO.* Now that I have gone a fair way up the learning curve,
I find that my productivity is much, much higher. Using Spring Security with
Grails has been a pleasant experience as well as the plugins work well out
of the box, kudos to Burt Beckwith.

I also attended the GR8-US conference the last 2 years and find a great
community surrounding the tool.

There is an ultra conservative element in the Java community that seems to
think that dynamic typing is dangerous and that static typing is necessary
and a way to avoid writing good tests. These people are flat out WRONG and
are costing their organizations a lot of wasted time and money. A lot could
be gained by biting the bullet and learning how to write good tests and
taking advantage of the many benefits dynamic/optional typing offers by
adopting Groovy.

So what are you static typing OCD people going to do when you eventually
have to write a lot more code  with a dynamic weakly typed language like
Javascript ??? This is NOT optional anymore.

Grails is the gateway drug for Groovy as Spock is for TDD.

Change is slow. The largest IT dev group in my area is still using CVS and
Struts on most of their projects but they are looking seriously at Git and
Grails. There is hope.







--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Is-Grails-really-being-adopted-by-IT-market-tp4648489p4648604.html
Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:

    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email





--
Color me impractical but I’d rather be able to look at myself in the mirror than be rich.
-Evan Light

12