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Should I use Grails? :-)

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Should I use Grails? :-)

Scott6666
I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...

I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.

Critical questions:
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
* Is VMWare really behind this framework?
* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
* Is it too buggy to be happy with?

I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails.  I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.  That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Arash Sharif
I will answer this question the best I can.....

Grails Rocks!



On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Scott Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...

I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.

Critical questions:
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
* Is VMWare really behind this framework?
* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
* Is it too buggy to be happy with?

I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails.  I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.  That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Scott6666
Succinct.

But positive.

On Aug 5, 2011, at 1:07 PM, Arash Sharif wrote:

I will answer this question the best I can.....

Grails Rocks!



On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Scott Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...

I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.

Critical questions:
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
* Is VMWare really behind this framework?
* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
* Is it too buggy to be happy with?

I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails.  I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.  That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Jordon Saardchit
In reply to this post by Scott6666
Just a few responses from my own experiences with commercial grails and ror.

On Aug 5, 2011, at 9:52 AM, Scott Eisenberg wrote:

> I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...
>
> I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.
>
> Critical questions:
> * Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
        The largest question with RoR is always about its scalability.  There are a few studies and some places that are doing it successfully, but if you are a java guru already, horizontal scaling of a grails app is no different than scaling a java app.

> * Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
        Yes indeed.  I would also consider looking at groovy++ (which should be fully supported in grails 2.0, as it depends on the newest groovy version).  Grails interop with java is quite easy, and with groovy++ and static types, you can achieve a lot of what you may want (for performance reasons) without actual java

> * Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
        This has always been the tricky one that I have seen.  On a very broad scale, you will always be able to find RoR developers easier than an actual grails developer (just my experience on the west coast).  However, the nice part is that you can confidently pick from the java developer pool as well.  The learning curve from java to groovy isn't horrific (especially with some javascript or any closure supported language experience), and then learning the grails framework is no different than learning any java webapp framework ( struts, wicket, spring mvc, etc ).  In fact, its a pretty natural shift considering most of the java world has some knowledge and experience with spring and/or hibernate, which are staples of the grails framework.

> * Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
        Sensitive subject.  You WILL encounter gotchas and edge cases using GORM.  Its just a fact.  What I can tell you is that the community is pretty active and helpful (from my experiences).  Take that for what its worth.

> * Is VMWare really behind this framework?
        I sincerely hope so.  WIth cloudfoundry out, I would assume so.  Maybe one of the springsource guys can answer this better? :)
> * Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
        Again, Springsource guys? :)
> * Is it too buggy to be happy with?
        My answer is no, but this question is of course completely relative to the user.  Some people are more adept or equipped to handle bugs than others.  Some people just want something flawless and/or someone accountable for fixing a problem.  Neither way is right or wrong.  Its really preference.

Hope that helps,

Jordon

>
> I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails.  I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.  That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.
>
> Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

mr.dustmite
In reply to this post by Scott6666
Scott6666 wrote
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
There is nothing about Grails that keeps you from scaling it. "Scaling" involves more than the framework you are using though and is a very broad and complex topic in itself. Choosing Grails isn't going to keep you from being able to scale. That's the best way to answer that question. As far as "how" that depends on what "scale" means to you.

Scott6666 wrote
* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
Grails isn't the correct word here, Groovy is. The short answer is "Yes you can". Learn Java and Groovy (lots of resources online or in books to help you do this).

Scott6666 wrote
Critical questions:
* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
I don't know the answer as it pertains to the DC area, but there are lots of Groovy and Grails developers out there. At least in the Austin, TX area.

Scott6666 wrote
* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
GORM does have some gotchas on the edges. However, GORM is pretty solid if you take the time to read the documentation and understand how and when it should be used and when it shouldn't.

Scott6666 wrote
* Is VMWare really behind this framework?
Yes.

Scott6666 wrote
* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
I don't know the answer to this. Someone at springsource should be able to assist you. Contact them.

Scott6666 wrote
* Is it too buggy to be happy with?
Not at all. I have several large projects in Grails and we are very happy with them and they are all rock solid (even under heavy volumes).

Scott6666 wrote
I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails.
Grails has a growing and very active community (including our own freenode IRC channel #grails). Typically if a post goes un-answered it's becuase it's either answered by reading the documentation, reading similar posts, or not doing something you shouldn't be doing in the first place. That's my opinion though.
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

smaldini
In reply to this post by Arash Sharif
TLDR version : yes.

Inline comments :

Critical questions:
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
Sky uses it, Linkedin too, some startups too, large account too, ... If you are Facebook, you will make some choices on the data front more than Grails. You will learn to use browser and server side .

* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
Copy paste your java code in a groovy file, or use src/java if you want to code Java :) There are also Scala, Clojure, PHP... plugins

* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
Yes, well , I can't tell for DC but in Europe you found them quite easily.

* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
Springsource articles by Peter are great, presentations from Burt too. My advice is , if associations are too tricky for you, just don't use them, there are some cool and sometimes more performant alternatives.

* Is VMWare really behind this framework?
Yes they are, see the multiple announces by Rod Johnson, CloudFoundry support, Grails 2 version, core team expansion, STS support... The SpringSource ecosystem is becoming rather consistent : data, cloud, container, productive frameworks..

* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
Yes  (http://www.springsource.com/support/groovy-grails-support-information-request) - And lot of consulting companies do it aswell (like mine)

* Is it too buggy to be happy with?
This is a mature oss project (6years old), about to release a second, innovative and powerful version. So No, it's not too buggy. I've deployed commercial grailsapps for gov, startups, large accounts, without troubles from Grails. The community is very active btw :)


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Arash Sharif <[hidden email]> wrote:
I will answer this question the best I can.....

Grails Rocks!



On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Scott Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...

I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.

Critical questions:
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
* Is VMWare really behind this framework?
* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
* Is it too buggy to be happy with?

I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails.  I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.  That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.

Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Ian Roberts
In reply to this post by Scott6666
On 05/08/2011 18:25, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:
> At this risk of sounding ignorant (okay, fine, I don't know) what does
> VMWare have to do with anything Grails related?

They own SpringSource.

Ian

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[hidden email]  | University of Sheffield, UK

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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

bobbywarner
In reply to this post by Scott6666
* Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?

Yes, it scales. Tomcat is a much better infrastructure than Passenger (mod_rails)  Watch this screen-cast for tips: http://grails.org/screencast/show/29

You'll hit network and database performance issues long before you need to worry about the actual performance of Grails though!

* Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?

Yes, you can mix and match pretty much any JVM language with Grails.  Java by default and others via plugins. There also is Groovy++ which looks pretty cool.

http://grails.org/plugin/clojure
http://grails.org/plugin/scala


* Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?

Not sure, but there are significantly more Java developers than Ruby and it's very easy for a Java developer to pick up Grails (especially if they've used Spring and Hibernate before).

* Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?

Yes, I believe most are fixed.  Maybe read these articles to learn more if you haven't already:

http://blog.springsource.com/2010/06/23/gorm-gotchas-part-1/
http://blog.springsource.com/2010/07/02/gorm-gotchas-part-2/
http://blog.springsource.com/2010/07/28/gorm-gotchas-part-3/


* Is VMWare really behind this framework?

VMware has developers on staff for both Grails and Groovy.

* Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.

I'm sure VMware would be happy to take your money!

* Is it too buggy to be happy with?

All software has bugs (especially a framework the size of Grails/Rails). Bugs are a good thing because then you know people are actively using it and trying to make it better! Rails has bugs too! (https://github.com/rails/rails/issues)


Hope that helps!
Bobby
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Jordon Saardchit
In reply to this post by Scott6666
And to matter of fact this.  If you are the size of facebook, you are probably not using any webapp framework any more.  Its like saying facebook still uses php.  At that size, your entire infrastructure will be primarily home grown.


;)

Jordon

On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:

I will keep this short because, you're right, you're asking a loaded question
and you obviously haven't done any research.

What is scaling?  Do you really know or are you repeating a buzz word that
someone mentioned to you? Statistically speaking, you will never be as big
as Facebook.  Setting up your infrastructure now to compete with Facebook
type traffic further dooms you to failure.  That being said, neither Groovy
nor Ruby are what you would call fast languages.  They are "fast enough" in
the context of a web application, but they aren't going to set any records
on the back end.  This is why you'll hear the term Polyglot programming
thrown around so much.  The idea is that you use a RAD framework (I prefer
Grails, obviously) for your front end development and then use a more
performant language (Scala, Clojure) for your intensive back end processing.
Now, when I say intensive, this is a relative term.  Grails will be
performant enough, until it isn't.  At which point you'll want to find out
where your performance bottlenecks are (they may not even be code related)
and fix them.  The beautiful thing about Grails is that it's easy to swap
out service written in Groovy for service written in another language.

You can mix and match grails with any JVM based language.  You learn by
attending seminars (No Fluff Just Stuff) and you read a few books.  Then you
start playing with a pet project to test out your ideas.  In short, you
learn the same way you learned Java.

Grails developers are in short supply because the world is beginning to wake
up to the fact that Grails development is much faster than pure Java
development.  There are people out there and they're growing in numbers.  I
can't speak to the DC area, but I'm sure you'll be able to find somebody.
If not, then hire a good Java developer and tell him to learn Grails.  It
should only take a couple of weeks for him to be able to be productive,
perhaps less.

What GORM gotchas?  I have no problems making associations.  The Grails In
Action 2nd edition book is an excellent reference that has examples of
simple and complex relationship types.  I use this book constantly for
reference and I haven't had any issues.  That isn't to say that Gorm doesn't
have bugs, but I wouldn't know of a specific one to mention.

At this risk of sounding ignorant (okay, fine, I don't know) what does
VMWare have to do with anything Grails related?

SpringSource will provide paid support and training for Grails.  They
currently hold the rights to the framework.

I really don't run into any showstopper bugs on Grails that would make me
abandon the framework.  All frameworks have their quirks.  I've been
developing 100% on Grails for the last year and a half and I love it.  I
can't imagine having to go back to working in pure Java.

Grails has a huge community that is constantly growing.  Here in Denver,
Grails is very much alive an well.  In Austin, you'll find a large Rails
community.  However, both frameworks have their devotees.  There is plenty
of help available for Grails developers (this forum should be proof of that)
and the Grails reference documentation (grails.org) is top notch.

This answer isn't as short as I wanted, but I hope this will answer some of
your questions.  I'm sorry if I started out a bit short tempered, but I
can't tell you how many people I see just blow off a great idea because they
couldn't do a little research.  The biggest change that I've seen in the
past 10 years is that it's no longer enough to just know one language really
well.  The successful developer of today and tomorrow is going to have to be
constantly researching and learning new technologies.  The web and mobile
app space is moving way too fast to just sit back and hope an answer falls
in your lap.

MJ

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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Scott6666
In reply to this post by Scott6666
You're sort of grouchy.  It would always be helpful in replies to leave out the insults:

> you obviously haven't done any research.

> Do you really know or are you repeating a buzz word


> Statistically speaking, you will never be as big
> as Facebook

> You learn by
> attending seminars (No Fluff Just Stuff) and you read a few books.

> I'm sorry if I started out a bit short tempered, but I
> can't tell you how many people I see just blow off a great idea because they
> couldn't do a little research


> The web and mobile
> app space is moving way too fast to just sit back and hope an answer falls
> in your lap.


I shouldn't have to defend myself to you.  If you want to answer the questions great.  If you think they are idiotic or arise from laziness than I would say don't bother to reply.  Your content is tarnished by your tone.

PS  I have done about 3 years of research on this.  Own and read 5 or so Groovy/Grails book.  Beginning to read 3-4 Rails books.  Peruse the user email list daily.  Read the Grails doc every 6 months or so to see how both the doc and the framework are evolving.  Perhaps I should have a thicker skin but I bristle at the condescending tone I often seen on the internet.  If you want converts -as all new frameworks do - you should try being accepting rather than judgmental.

PPS  An apology at the end of a rant such as yours does not excuse the rant.  If you have to apologize at the end, you should think about rewriting or just hitting the delete button.

PPPS  Let's not start a flame war on this.

PPPPS  Have a great day and a nice weekend.





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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Herbert Baeuerle
In reply to this post by Jordon Saardchit
 Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand
the team (in DC area)?

yes they are:
[hidden email]


On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Jordon Saardchit <[hidden email]> wrote:

> And to matter of fact this.  If you are the size of facebook, you are
> probably not using any webapp framework any more.  Its like saying facebook
> still uses php.  At that size, your entire infrastructure will be primarily
> home grown.
> https://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10100259101684977&oid=9445547199&comments
> ;)
> Jordon
> On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:
>
> I will keep this short because, you're right, you're asking a loaded
> question
> and you obviously haven't done any research.
>
> What is scaling?  Do you really know or are you repeating a buzz word that
> someone mentioned to you? Statistically speaking, you will never be as big
> as Facebook.  Setting up your infrastructure now to compete with Facebook
> type traffic further dooms you to failure.  That being said, neither Groovy
> nor Ruby are what you would call fast languages.  They are "fast enough" in
> the context of a web application, but they aren't going to set any records
> on the back end.  This is why you'll hear the term Polyglot programming
> thrown around so much.  The idea is that you use a RAD framework (I prefer
> Grails, obviously) for your front end development and then use a more
> performant language (Scala, Clojure) for your intensive back end processing.
> Now, when I say intensive, this is a relative term.  Grails will be
> performant enough, until it isn't.  At which point you'll want to find out
> where your performance bottlenecks are (they may not even be code related)
> and fix them.  The beautiful thing about Grails is that it's easy to swap
> out service written in Groovy for service written in another language.
>
> You can mix and match grails with any JVM based language.  You learn by
> attending seminars (No Fluff Just Stuff) and you read a few books.  Then you
> start playing with a pet project to test out your ideas.  In short, you
> learn the same way you learned Java.
>
> Grails developers are in short supply because the world is beginning to wake
> up to the fact that Grails development is much faster than pure Java
> development.  There are people out there and they're growing in numbers.  I
> can't speak to the DC area, but I'm sure you'll be able to find somebody.
> If not, then hire a good Java developer and tell him to learn Grails.  It
> should only take a couple of weeks for him to be able to be productive,
> perhaps less.
>
> What GORM gotchas?  I have no problems making associations.  The Grails In
> Action 2nd edition book is an excellent reference that has examples of
> simple and complex relationship types.  I use this book constantly for
> reference and I haven't had any issues.  That isn't to say that Gorm doesn't
> have bugs, but I wouldn't know of a specific one to mention.
>
> At this risk of sounding ignorant (okay, fine, I don't know) what does
> VMWare have to do with anything Grails related?
>
> SpringSource will provide paid support and training for Grails.  They
> currently hold the rights to the framework.
>
> I really don't run into any showstopper bugs on Grails that would make me
> abandon the framework.  All frameworks have their quirks.  I've been
> developing 100% on Grails for the last year and a half and I love it.  I
> can't imagine having to go back to working in pure Java.
>
> Grails has a huge community that is constantly growing.  Here in Denver,
> Grails is very much alive an well.  In Austin, you'll find a large Rails
> community.  However, both frameworks have their devotees.  There is plenty
> of help available for Grails developers (this forum should be proof of that)
> and the Grails reference documentation (grails.org) is top notch.
>
> This answer isn't as short as I wanted, but I hope this will answer some of
> your questions.  I'm sorry if I started out a bit short tempered, but I
> can't tell you how many people I see just blow off a great idea because they
> couldn't do a little research.  The biggest change that I've seen in the
> past 10 years is that it's no longer enough to just know one language really
> well.  The successful developer of today and tomorrow is going to have to be
> constantly researching and learning new technologies.  The web and mobile
> app space is moving way too fast to just sit back and hope an answer falls
> in your lap.
>
> MJ
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Should-I-use-Grails-tp3721683p3721765.html
> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>
>    http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>
>
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Scott6666
In reply to this post by Jordon Saardchit
I do have an innate curiosity as to why frameworks are deemed to need to be abandoned with great scale.  I don't feel that should be the case.

I suppose great scale requires optimizations custom to that application and therefore the framework breaks down.  Still it seems that Facebook and others who scale put their improvements back into the community as open source work.  Therefore it has more universal application that just an optimization for FB.  Perhaps it's less an issue of frameworks breaking down than a few sites are reaching scales unheard of in previous web sites and therefore not considered in building a framework that started even 3 years ago.

I've been doing web since 1995 (at MCI).  The tools have come along way...


On Aug 5, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Jordon Saardchit wrote:

And to matter of fact this.  If you are the size of facebook, you are probably not using any webapp framework any more.  Its like saying facebook still uses php.  At that size, your entire infrastructure will be primarily home grown.


;)

Jordon

On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:

I will keep this short because, you're right, you're asking a loaded question
and you obviously haven't done any research.

What is scaling?  Do you really know or are you repeating a buzz word that
someone mentioned to you? Statistically speaking, you will never be as big
as Facebook.  Setting up your infrastructure now to compete with Facebook
type traffic further dooms you to failure.  That being said, neither Groovy
nor Ruby are what you would call fast languages.  They are "fast enough" in
the context of a web application, but they aren't going to set any records
on the back end.  This is why you'll hear the term Polyglot programming
thrown around so much.  The idea is that you use a RAD framework (I prefer
Grails, obviously) for your front end development and then use a more
performant language (Scala, Clojure) for your intensive back end processing.
Now, when I say intensive, this is a relative term.  Grails will be
performant enough, until it isn't.  At which point you'll want to find out
where your performance bottlenecks are (they may not even be code related)
and fix them.  The beautiful thing about Grails is that it's easy to swap
out service written in Groovy for service written in another language.

You can mix and match grails with any JVM based language.  You learn by
attending seminars (No Fluff Just Stuff) and you read a few books.  Then you
start playing with a pet project to test out your ideas.  In short, you
learn the same way you learned Java.

Grails developers are in short supply because the world is beginning to wake
up to the fact that Grails development is much faster than pure Java
development.  There are people out there and they're growing in numbers.  I
can't speak to the DC area, but I'm sure you'll be able to find somebody.
If not, then hire a good Java developer and tell him to learn Grails.  It
should only take a couple of weeks for him to be able to be productive,
perhaps less.

What GORM gotchas?  I have no problems making associations.  The Grails In
Action 2nd edition book is an excellent reference that has examples of
simple and complex relationship types.  I use this book constantly for
reference and I haven't had any issues.  That isn't to say that Gorm doesn't
have bugs, but I wouldn't know of a specific one to mention.

At this risk of sounding ignorant (okay, fine, I don't know) what does
VMWare have to do with anything Grails related?

SpringSource will provide paid support and training for Grails.  They
currently hold the rights to the framework.

I really don't run into any showstopper bugs on Grails that would make me
abandon the framework.  All frameworks have their quirks.  I've been
developing 100% on Grails for the last year and a half and I love it.  I
can't imagine having to go back to working in pure Java.

Grails has a huge community that is constantly growing.  Here in Denver,
Grails is very much alive an well.  In Austin, you'll find a large Rails
community.  However, both frameworks have their devotees.  There is plenty
of help available for Grails developers (this forum should be proof of that)
and the Grails reference documentation (grails.org) is top notch.

This answer isn't as short as I wanted, but I hope this will answer some of
your questions.  I'm sorry if I started out a bit short tempered, but I
can't tell you how many people I see just blow off a great idea because they
couldn't do a little research.  The biggest change that I've seen in the
past 10 years is that it's no longer enough to just know one language really
well.  The successful developer of today and tomorrow is going to have to be
constantly researching and learning new technologies.  The web and mobile
app space is moving way too fast to just sit back and hope an answer falls
in your lap.

MJ

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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Jordon Saardchit
For the record, I meant no insult.  I was trying to answer your questions as helpful as possible.  I just popped the FB video in because I think its an enlightening hour of software technology and culture. 

Cheers,

Jordon

On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:14 AM, Scott Eisenberg wrote:

I do have an innate curiosity as to why frameworks are deemed to need to be abandoned with great scale.  I don't feel that should be the case.

I suppose great scale requires optimizations custom to that application and therefore the framework breaks down.  Still it seems that Facebook and others who scale put their improvements back into the community as open source work.  Therefore it has more universal application that just an optimization for FB.  Perhaps it's less an issue of frameworks breaking down than a few sites are reaching scales unheard of in previous web sites and therefore not considered in building a framework that started even 3 years ago.

I've been doing web since 1995 (at MCI).  The tools have come along way...


On Aug 5, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Jordon Saardchit wrote:

And to matter of fact this.  If you are the size of facebook, you are probably not using any webapp framework any more.  Its like saying facebook still uses php.  At that size, your entire infrastructure will be primarily home grown.


;)

Jordon

On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:

I will keep this short because, you're right, you're asking a loaded question
and you obviously haven't done any research.

What is scaling?  Do you really know or are you repeating a buzz word that
someone mentioned to you? Statistically speaking, you will never be as big
as Facebook.  Setting up your infrastructure now to compete with Facebook
type traffic further dooms you to failure.  That being said, neither Groovy
nor Ruby are what you would call fast languages.  They are "fast enough" in
the context of a web application, but they aren't going to set any records
on the back end.  This is why you'll hear the term Polyglot programming
thrown around so much.  The idea is that you use a RAD framework (I prefer
Grails, obviously) for your front end development and then use a more
performant language (Scala, Clojure) for your intensive back end processing.
Now, when I say intensive, this is a relative term.  Grails will be
performant enough, until it isn't.  At which point you'll want to find out
where your performance bottlenecks are (they may not even be code related)
and fix them.  The beautiful thing about Grails is that it's easy to swap
out service written in Groovy for service written in another language.

You can mix and match grails with any JVM based language.  You learn by
attending seminars (No Fluff Just Stuff) and you read a few books.  Then you
start playing with a pet project to test out your ideas.  In short, you
learn the same way you learned Java.

Grails developers are in short supply because the world is beginning to wake
up to the fact that Grails development is much faster than pure Java
development.  There are people out there and they're growing in numbers.  I
can't speak to the DC area, but I'm sure you'll be able to find somebody.
If not, then hire a good Java developer and tell him to learn Grails.  It
should only take a couple of weeks for him to be able to be productive,
perhaps less.

What GORM gotchas?  I have no problems making associations.  The Grails In
Action 2nd edition book is an excellent reference that has examples of
simple and complex relationship types.  I use this book constantly for
reference and I haven't had any issues.  That isn't to say that Gorm doesn't
have bugs, but I wouldn't know of a specific one to mention.

At this risk of sounding ignorant (okay, fine, I don't know) what does
VMWare have to do with anything Grails related?

SpringSource will provide paid support and training for Grails.  They
currently hold the rights to the framework.

I really don't run into any showstopper bugs on Grails that would make me
abandon the framework.  All frameworks have their quirks.  I've been
developing 100% on Grails for the last year and a half and I love it.  I
can't imagine having to go back to working in pure Java.

Grails has a huge community that is constantly growing.  Here in Denver,
Grails is very much alive an well.  In Austin, you'll find a large Rails
community.  However, both frameworks have their devotees.  There is plenty
of help available for Grails developers (this forum should be proof of that)
and the Grails reference documentation (grails.org) is top notch.

This answer isn't as short as I wanted, but I hope this will answer some of
your questions.  I'm sorry if I started out a bit short tempered, but I
can't tell you how many people I see just blow off a great idea because they
couldn't do a little research.  The biggest change that I've seen in the
past 10 years is that it's no longer enough to just know one language really
well.  The successful developer of today and tomorrow is going to have to be
constantly researching and learning new technologies.  The web and mobile
app space is moving way too fast to just sit back and hope an answer falls
in your lap.

MJ

--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Should-I-use-Grails-tp3721683p3721765.html
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Scott6666
No offense at all. 

Point well taken about frameworks. I will do a bit of research about how things like MongoDB and Hadoop fit into grails. I have seen some discussions on MongoDB via a plug in. Nothing I can remember on Hadoop. 

PS I DO hate Facebook and all the time I see my kids wasting on it. But it does seem to scale like a muther...

On Aug 5, 2011, at 2:43 PM, Jordon Saardchit <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the record, I meant no insult.  I was trying to answer your questions as helpful as possible.  I just popped the FB video in because I think its an enlightening hour of software technology and culture. 

Cheers,

Jordon

On Aug 5, 2011, at 11:14 AM, Scott Eisenberg wrote:

I do have an innate curiosity as to why frameworks are deemed to need to be abandoned with great scale.  I don't feel that should be the case.

I suppose great scale requires optimizations custom to that application and therefore the framework breaks down.  Still it seems that Facebook and others who scale put their improvements back into the community as open source work.  Therefore it has more universal application that just an optimization for FB.  Perhaps it's less an issue of frameworks breaking down than a few sites are reaching scales unheard of in previous web sites and therefore not considered in building a framework that started even 3 years ago.

I've been doing web since 1995 (at MCI).  The tools have come along way...


On Aug 5, 2011, at 1:43 PM, Jordon Saardchit wrote:

And to matter of fact this.  If you are the size of facebook, you are probably not using any webapp framework any more.  Its like saying facebook still uses php.  At that size, your entire infrastructure will be primarily home grown.


;)

Jordon

On Aug 5, 2011, at 10:25 AM, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:

I will keep this short because, you're right, you're asking a loaded question
and you obviously haven't done any research.

What is scaling?  Do you really know or are you repeating a buzz word that
someone mentioned to you? Statistically speaking, you will never be as big
as Facebook.  Setting up your infrastructure now to compete with Facebook
type traffic further dooms you to failure.  That being said, neither Groovy
nor Ruby are what you would call fast languages.  They are "fast enough" in
the context of a web application, but they aren't going to set any records
on the back end.  This is why you'll hear the term Polyglot programming
thrown around so much.  The idea is that you use a RAD framework (I prefer
Grails, obviously) for your front end development and then use a more
performant language (Scala, Clojure) for your intensive back end processing.
Now, when I say intensive, this is a relative term.  Grails will be
performant enough, until it isn't.  At which point you'll want to find out
where your performance bottlenecks are (they may not even be code related)
and fix them.  The beautiful thing about Grails is that it's easy to swap
out service written in Groovy for service written in another language.

You can mix and match grails with any JVM based language.  You learn by
attending seminars (No Fluff Just Stuff) and you read a few books.  Then you
start playing with a pet project to test out your ideas.  In short, you
learn the same way you learned Java.

Grails developers are in short supply because the world is beginning to wake
up to the fact that Grails development is much faster than pure Java
development.  There are people out there and they're growing in numbers.  I
can't speak to the DC area, but I'm sure you'll be able to find somebody.
If not, then hire a good Java developer and tell him to learn Grails.  It
should only take a couple of weeks for him to be able to be productive,
perhaps less.

What GORM gotchas?  I have no problems making associations.  The Grails In
Action 2nd edition book is an excellent reference that has examples of
simple and complex relationship types.  I use this book constantly for
reference and I haven't had any issues.  That isn't to say that Gorm doesn't
have bugs, but I wouldn't know of a specific one to mention.

At this risk of sounding ignorant (okay, fine, I don't know) what does
VMWare have to do with anything Grails related?

SpringSource will provide paid support and training for Grails.  They
currently hold the rights to the framework.

I really don't run into any showstopper bugs on Grails that would make me
abandon the framework.  All frameworks have their quirks.  I've been
developing 100% on Grails for the last year and a half and I love it.  I
can't imagine having to go back to working in pure Java.

Grails has a huge community that is constantly growing.  Here in Denver,
Grails is very much alive an well.  In Austin, you'll find a large Rails
community.  However, both frameworks have their devotees.  There is plenty
of help available for Grails developers (this forum should be proof of that)
and the Grails reference documentation (grails.org) is top notch.

This answer isn't as short as I wanted, but I hope this will answer some of
your questions.  I'm sorry if I started out a bit short tempered, but I
can't tell you how many people I see just blow off a great idea because they
couldn't do a little research.  The biggest change that I've seen in the
past 10 years is that it's no longer enough to just know one language really
well.  The successful developer of today and tomorrow is going to have to be
constantly researching and learning new technologies.  The web and mobile
app space is moving way too fast to just sit back and hope an answer falls
in your lap.

MJ

--
View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Should-I-use-Grails-tp3721683p3721765.html
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

mjohnsonaz74
In reply to this post by Scott6666
To this point I must apologize.  I deleted my post after I posted it, but being on a mailing list means that it goes out regardless.  I meant what I said, but realized (too late) that the tone of my post was not appropriate for this list.  I believe that the Rails community has received a reputation (accurate or not) of being snappy on the forums with new users and I certainly don't want to give the same reputation to the Grails community.  The people who helpfully answer posts on this forum are very bright and helpful and I'm sorry that my post went out to the mailing list.

MJ
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

fabien7474
In reply to this post by Scott6666
My own answer to this very same question 1 year ago :

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2055396/is-grails-now-worth-it/2055573#2055573
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

rlovtangen
In reply to this post by Scott6666

On Aug 5, 2011, at 6:52 PM, Scott Eisenberg wrote:

> I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...
>
> I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.
>
> Critical questions:
> * Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
> * Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
> * Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
> * Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
> * Is VMWare really behind this framework?
> * Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.


> * Is it too buggy to be happy with?

I've been using Grails since version 2.1 I think. My previous experience was mostly with Struts 1, WebWork and Struts 2. (yes I know, Grails is more than a web framework though).
I must say, I've never run into so many bugs as I've done with Grails. Especially there was a time around the early versions of 1.3.x that gave me its share of pain. It is much more stable now with 1.3.6 and 1.3.7, and it looks to me that the team has gained much more control over the release process  (doing some testing with certain customers, staying away of regressions etc). So I expect this rough period to be over.
Any chance I would go back to Struts 2? No way, Grails is still so much more productive, and so much more fun to work with. And the community is alive and kicking (can't say that about Struts 2 anymore). The documentation is getting really good (and is open source as well, so if you see some weak points, you can contribute quite easily :).

>
> I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails. I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.

I have also noticed those questions without a proper solution. I've asked a few of them myself. But it's getting better, especially I would mention Peter Ledbrook as a person that seems to go through the latest posts every now and then to see if any of them remains unanswered. Most questions receive an almost immediate answer though. Stackoverflow.com is getting more and more Grails activity as well.
I would say I get more than enough support from the community now, to solve the problems I occasionally run into. Many questions I ask is not blockers though, but merely questions on how to achieve things more easily.

>  That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.
>
> Thanks in advance for any guidance.
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

jlust
When you're Facebook size, you won't be on Grails anymore, but chances of that happening are slim :)

Grails does have some bugs, but no showstoppers, for me at least. On the other hand, yesterday i heard a ROR developer say that ROR is 20% coding and 80% getting the system to play nice, so I guess it's not without issues either.

My 2 cents

Jurgen

Op 5-aug.-2011 om 21:59 heeft Ronny Løvtangen <[hidden email]> het volgende geschreven:

>
> On Aug 5, 2011, at 6:52 PM, Scott Eisenberg wrote:
>
>> I know this is a bit like kicking a hornet's nest but...
>>
>> I'm starting a project and I want to know if I should use Grails or ROR.  I've been watching and playing with Grails since the 1.x days and wonder if the framework is secure enough to use for a real, large scale, project.
>>
>> Critical questions:
>> * Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?
>> * Can I mix and match Grails with Java with Generics (and if so how do I learn)?
>> * Are there sufficient grails developers out there in case I want to expand the team (in DC area)?
>> * Are the GORM Gotchas either fixed enough or documented enough for me to understand what will look like errors as I try to learn associations?
>> * Is VMWare really behind this framework?
>> * Does VMWare provide paid support if I need it?  Does anyone else.
>
>
>> * Is it too buggy to be happy with?
>
> I've been using Grails since version 2.1 I think. My previous experience was mostly with Struts 1, WebWork and Struts 2. (yes I know, Grails is more than a web framework though).
> I must say, I've never run into so many bugs as I've done with Grails. Especially there was a time around the early versions of 1.3.x that gave me its share of pain. It is much more stable now with 1.3.6 and 1.3.7, and it looks to me that the team has gained much more control over the release process  (doing some testing with certain customers, staying away of regressions etc). So I expect this rough period to be over.
> Any chance I would go back to Struts 2? No way, Grails is still so much more productive, and so much more fun to work with. And the community is alive and kicking (can't say that about Struts 2 anymore). The documentation is getting really good (and is open source as well, so if you see some weak points, you can contribute quite easily :).
>
>>
>> I sense there is enough Rails history and community that if I need help I can get it.  Not so sure with Grails. I see a lot of simple (and complex) issues on this mailing list that don't seem to be answered that I have concerned.
>
> I have also noticed those questions without a proper solution. I've asked a few of them myself. But it's getting better, especially I would mention Peter Ledbrook as a person that seems to go through the latest posts every now and then to see if any of them remains unanswered. Most questions receive an almost immediate answer though. Stackoverflow.com is getting more and more Grails activity as well.
> I would say I get more than enough support from the community now, to solve the problems I occasionally run into. Many questions I ask is not blockers though, but merely questions on how to achieve things more easily.
>
>> That said, I don't know ROR that well and would be starting from scratch learning it and getting into the communities.  For all I know it has the same issues I perceive Grails to have.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for any guidance.
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe from this list, please visit:
>>
>>   http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>>
>>
>>
>
>
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

Scott6666
In reply to this post by mjohnsonaz74
Apology accepted.  It's (unfortunately) rare that someone can take feedback and react in a positive way rather than getting defensive.  I am very impressed.

On Aug 5, 2011, at 3:18 PM, mjohnsonaz74 wrote:

> To this point I must apologize.  I deleted my post after I posted it, but
> being on a mailing list means that it goes out regardless.  I meant what I
> said, but realized (too late) that the tone of my post was not appropriate
> for this list.  I believe that the Rails community has received a reputation
> (accurate or not) of being snappy on the forums with new users and I
> certainly don't want to give the same reputation to the Grails community.
> The people who helpfully answer posts on this forum are very bright and
> helpful and I'm sorry that my post went out to the mailing list.
>
> MJ
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://grails.1312388.n4.nabble.com/Should-I-use-Grails-tp3721683p3722054.html
> Sent from the Grails - user mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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>
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Re: Should I use Grails? :-)

unixlibre
In reply to this post by Scott6666
On Fri, Aug 5, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Scott Eisenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> * Does anyone know if it scales (and if so how to do so)?  When I am Facebook size will I still be on Grails?

  When this happens, hire Graeme; o better yet: Buy SpringSource. :-)

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[hidden email]

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