project zero

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project zero

interz
What are everyones views on this "project zero" framework that IBM has out there. It uses groovy and php. Serious competitor to grails?

http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/






       
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Re: project zero

Steven Devijver
Not really a competitor. They have the Eclipse integration going for
them though.

Otherwise their example give the impression that the framework doens't
structure the code at all for you, like Grails does for example.

It could one day become more structured I guess. I haven't tried it
yet, I'm only evaluating based on what's on their website.

Steven

On 10/10/07, ahnf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What are everyones views on this "project zero" framework that IBM has out there. It uses groovy and php. Serious competitor to grails?
>
> http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
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Re: project zero

peter_m
They also seem to have some strange licensing scheme where (if I
understand it correctly) you can't run it on more than 4 cores and 4
sites at once or something. I didn't read much past that.

On 10/10/07, Steven Devijver <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not really a competitor. They have the Eclipse integration going for
> them though.
>
> Otherwise their example give the impression that the framework doens't
> structure the code at all for you, like Grails does for example.
>
> It could one day become more structured I guess. I haven't tried it
> yet, I'm only evaluating based on what's on their website.
>
> Steven
>
> On 10/10/07, ahnf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > What are everyones views on this "project zero" framework that IBM has out there. It uses groovy and php. Serious competitor to grails?
> >
> > http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________________________________
> > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
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Re: project zero

Michael Kimsal
In reply to this post by interz
My initial reaction is "not right now".  That's not after reading it
just now - I looked in to project0 a couple months ago, and have
talked to one of the guys who is either on the project or works with
them.  I think there's a lot of things to be ironed out first - it was
extremely raw when I saw it.  Where it might give grails some run for
the money is in IDE support.  ProjectZero, is, I believe, heavily
integrated with Eclipse, and that's (FWII) part of the core dev
process, not just an extra plugin after the language is developed.

Given that it's not currently open source, and won't be, I'm not sure
what the final pricing/usage/terms will end up being.  Until that's
known, this is not something I'd build 'real' apps on yet.

On 10/10/07, ahnf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What are everyones views on this "project zero" framework that IBM has out there. It uses groovy and php. Serious competitor to grails?
>
> http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>


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Re: project zero

Guillaume Laforge-2
On 10/10/07, Michael Kimsal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> My initial reaction is "not right now".  That's not after reading it
> just now - I looked in to project0 a couple months ago, and have
> talked to one of the guys who is either on the project or works with
> them.  I think there's a lot of things to be ironed out first - it was
> extremely raw when I saw it.  Where it might give grails some run for
> the money is in IDE support.  ProjectZero, is, I believe, heavily
> integrated with Eclipse, and that's (FWII) part of the core dev
> process, not just an extra plugin after the language is developed.

Speaking of IDE support, they help us improve the Groovy plugin for
Eclipse, so it's positive :-)

[...]

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Groovy Project Manager
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Re: project zero

interz
In reply to this post by interz
Yeah I took a look at their demo as well, it appears you have to have to work in eclipse in order to get any of the code-generation done for you. Also they use some custom jdbc abstraction for db access, does not appear to be a hibernate or anything

----- Original Message ----
From: Steven Devijver <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:34:32 AM
Subject: Re: [grails-user] project zero

Not really a competitor. They have the Eclipse integration going for
them though.

Otherwise their example give the impression that the framework doens't
structure the code at all for you, like Grails does for example.

It could one day become more structured I guess. I haven't tried it
yet, I'm only evaluating based on what's on their website.

Steven

On 10/10/07, ahnf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> What are everyones views on this "project zero" framework that IBM has out there. It uses groovy and php. Serious competitor to grails?
>
> http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________________________________
> Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Re: project zero

Randall R Schulz
In reply to this post by peter_m
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 08:37, Peter Mondlock wrote:
> They also seem to have some strange licensing scheme where (if I
> understand it correctly) you can't run it on more than 4 cores and 4
> sites at once or something. I didn't read much past that.

Also it is not open source.

As scruffy as Groovy and Grails are, they're miles ahead of the
competition, which I take to be Project Zero and Lift (Scala).

(Well, as a programming language, Scala trumps Groovy, but it's a very
different kind of programming with a feel that most experienced Java
programmers would find quite foreign, so for most Java programmers it's
much less accessible with a longer learning curve.)

All IMO, if it needs to be said...


Randall Schulz

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Re: project zero

Guillaume Laforge-2
Scruffy?

On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wednesday 10 October 2007 08:37, Peter Mondlock wrote:
> > They also seem to have some strange licensing scheme where (if I
> > understand it correctly) you can't run it on more than 4 cores and 4
> > sites at once or something. I didn't read much past that.
>
> Also it is not open source.
>
> As scruffy as Groovy and Grails are, they're miles ahead of the
> competition, which I take to be Project Zero and Lift (Scala).
>
> (Well, as a programming language, Scala trumps Groovy, but it's a very
> different kind of programming with a feel that most experienced Java
> programmers would find quite foreign, so for most Java programmers it's
> much less accessible with a longer learning curve.)
>
> All IMO, if it needs to be said...
>
>
> Randall Schulz
>
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--
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Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

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Re: project zero

Randall R Schulz
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> Scruffy?

IMO.


RRS


> On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 08:37, Peter Mondlock wrote:
> > > They also seem to have some strange licensing scheme where (if I
> > > understand it correctly) you can't run it on more than 4 cores
> > > and 4 sites at once or something. I didn't read much past that.
> >
> > Also it is not open source.
> >
> > As scruffy as Groovy and Grails are, they're miles ahead of the
> > competition, which I take to be Project Zero and Lift (Scala).
> >
> > (Well, as a programming language, Scala trumps Groovy, but it's a
> > very different kind of programming with a feel that most
> > experienced Java programmers would find quite foreign, so for most
> > Java programmers it's much less accessible with a longer learning
> > curve.)
> >
> > All IMO, if it needs to be said...

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Re: project zero

Guillaume Laforge-2
It's a new adjective I've just learned, but it feels pretty negative, isn't it?
But you seem to like this "scruffiness"?

On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > Scruffy?
>
> IMO.
>
>
> RRS
>
>
> > On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 08:37, Peter Mondlock wrote:
> > > > They also seem to have some strange licensing scheme where (if I
> > > > understand it correctly) you can't run it on more than 4 cores
> > > > and 4 sites at once or something. I didn't read much past that.
> > >
> > > Also it is not open source.
> > >
> > > As scruffy as Groovy and Grails are, they're miles ahead of the
> > > competition, which I take to be Project Zero and Lift (Scala).
> > >
> > > (Well, as a programming language, Scala trumps Groovy, but it's a
> > > very different kind of programming with a feel that most
> > > experienced Java programmers would find quite foreign, so for most
> > > Java programmers it's much less accessible with a longer learning
> > > curve.)
> > >
> > > All IMO, if it needs to be said...
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

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Re: project zero

Bugzilla from corey_s@qwest.net
In reply to this post by Randall R Schulz
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:27:15 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
> On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > Scruffy?
>
> IMO.
>

This is usually the part in the scene where the general mood suddenly goes
tense and everyone in the pub starts climbing under tables or eying nearby
bottles of booze, cue sticks and chairs for makeshift weapons...


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Re: project zero

Russel Winder
On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 11:37 -0700, Corey wrote:

> On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:27:15 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > > Scruffy?
> >
> > IMO.
> >
>
> This is usually the part in the scene where the general mood suddenly goes
> tense and everyone in the pub starts climbing under tables or eying nearby
> bottles of booze, cue sticks and chairs for makeshift weapons...
Clearly you have lived in a really rough area.  :-)

--
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====================================================
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41 Buckmaster Road               m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK              w: http://www.russel.org.uk/

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Re: project zero

Russel Winder
In reply to this post by Guillaume Laforge-2
On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 20:31 +0200, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> It's a new adjective I've just learned, but it feels pretty negative, isn't it?
> But you seem to like this "scruffiness"?

dictionary.com is your friend:

scruff·y    /ˈskrʌfi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled
Pronunciation[skruhf-ee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective, scruff·i·er, scruff·i·est.
untidy; shabby.

Not actually an adjective that can be applied to Groovy and Grails per
se, but there are some parts of the Groovy source code that are very
scruffy indeed.

--
Russel.
====================================================
Dr Russel Winder                       t: +44 20 7585 2200
41 Buckmaster Road               m: +44 7770 465 077
London SW11 1EN, UK              w: http://www.russel.org.uk/

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RE: project zero

Maxwell Chiareli Xandeco
In reply to this post by Steven Devijver
Grails needs a eclipse plugin....

The groovy puglin.... Don't works...

Bugs bugs... And bugs...

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Devijver [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 12:35 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [grails-user] project zero

Not really a competitor. They have the Eclipse integration going for
them though.

Otherwise their example give the impression that the framework doens't
structure the code at all for you, like Grails does for example.

It could one day become more structured I guess. I haven't tried it yet,
I'm only evaluating based on what's on their website.

Steven

On 10/10/07, ahnf <[hidden email]> wrote:
> What are everyones views on this "project zero" framework that IBM has
out there. It uses groovy and php. Serious competitor to grails?

>
> http://www.projectzero.org/wiki/bin/view/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> ______________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
> Business gives you all the tools to get online.
> http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe from this list please visit:
>
>     http://xircles.codehaus.org/manage_email
>
>

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Re: project zero

Michael Kimsal
In reply to this post by Russel Winder
I think many people use the word as almost a term of endearment - a
little puppy might be scruffy.  "apple scruffs" was a term used to
describe the fans outside apple (beatles apple, not steve jobs apple).

I took it to mean 'unpolished', and it still is, at least in some
areas, but things are certainly coming together quickly!


Michael Kimsal
http://www.webdevradio.com
919-455-8488

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Re: project zero

Dave Griffith-2
In reply to this post by Guillaume Laforge-2

"Scruffy" seems about right.  It implies both lovability (due to technological awesomeness) and dirtiness (due to spec and documentation, um, non-awesomeness).  It's not a dreadfully negative word, in idiomatic English.


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Re: project zero

Randall R Schulz
In reply to this post by Guillaume Laforge-2
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:31, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> It's a new adjective I've just learned, but it feels pretty negative,
> isn't it? But you seem to like this "scruffiness"?

Well, in the epic battle between the "neats" and the "scruffies," I'm
a "neat" (possibly owing to my proximity to Stanford) so it's not what
I'd call high praise, but neither is it a horrible condemnation.

I do think Groovy and Grails are too much seat-of-the-pants,
cowboy-style projects, but I am learning and using them. More than
anything else, they're under-documented. Nonetheless, I've committed my
project to using them, so obviously if I thought this orientation were
a fatal flaw, I would not have done so.

And I thought that by mixing in the "scruffy" remark with the favorable
comparison to competitors that you'd see I wasn't just trying to be
mean.


Randall Schulz


> On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > > Scruffy?
> >
> > IMO.
> >
> >
> > RRS
> >
> > > On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 08:37, Peter Mondlock wrote:
> > > > > They also seem to have some strange licensing scheme where
> > > > > (if I understand it correctly) you can't run it on more than
> > > > > 4 cores and 4 sites at once or something. I didn't read much
> > > > > past that.
> > > >
> > > > Also it is not open source.
> > > >
> > > > As scruffy as Groovy and Grails are, they're miles ahead of the
> > > > competition, which I take to be Project Zero and Lift (Scala).
> > > >
> > > > (Well, as a programming language, Scala trumps Groovy, but it's
> > > > a very different kind of programming with a feel that most
> > > > experienced Java programmers would find quite foreign, so for
> > > > most Java programmers it's much less accessible with a longer
> > > > learning curve.)
> > > >
> > > > All IMO, if it needs to be said...

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Re: project zero

Randall R Schulz
In reply to this post by Russel Winder
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:37, Russel Winder wrote:

> On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 11:37 -0700, Corey wrote:
> > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:27:15 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > > > Scruffy?
> > >
> > > IMO.
> >
> > This is usually the part in the scene where the general mood
> > suddenly goes tense and everyone in the pub starts climbing under
> > tables or eying nearby bottles of booze, cue sticks and chairs for
> > makeshift weapons...
>
> Clearly you have lived in a really rough area.  :-)

Or he's seen too many westerns, spaghetti or otherwise.


RRS

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Re: project zero

Guillaume Laforge-2
In reply to this post by Randall R Schulz
On 10/10/07, Randall R Schulz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> [...]
> I do think Groovy and Grails are too much seat-of-the-pants,
> cowboy-style projects, but I am learning and using them. More than
> anything else, they're under-documented. Nonetheless, I've committed my
> project to using them, so obviously if I thought this orientation were
> a fatal flaw, I would not have done so.

Okay, so let's be concrete... what is wrong with the documentation of
our projects?
Do you have particular suggestions on how to improve it?
What's missing in your opinion?
Help is very welcome to improve the state of the documentation.

PS: frankly, there are a couple awesomely documented projects (Spring
or Hibernate come to mind), but most of the OSS projects are in far
worse situations regarding documentation than Groovy and Grails.

--
Guillaume Laforge
Groovy Project Manager
http://glaforge.free.fr/blog/groovy

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Re: project zero

Bugzilla from corey_s@qwest.net
In reply to this post by Randall R Schulz
On Wednesday 10 October 2007 12:01:42 pm Randall R Schulz wrote:

> On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:37, Russel Winder wrote:
> > On Wed, 2007-10-10 at 11:37 -0700, Corey wrote:
> > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:27:15 am Randall R Schulz wrote:
> > > > On Wednesday 10 October 2007 11:10, Guillaume Laforge wrote:
> > > > > Scruffy?
> > > >
> > > > IMO.
> > >
> > > This is usually the part in the scene where the general mood
> > > suddenly goes tense and everyone in the pub starts climbing under
> > > tables or eying nearby bottles of booze, cue sticks and chairs for
> > > makeshift weapons...
> >
> > Clearly you have lived in a really rough area.  :-)
>
> Or he's seen too many westerns, spaghetti or otherwise.
>

A little of both!  <grin>

I misspent a large part of my youth playing hooky from school and
hanging out in the comp.os.*.advocacy groups on usenet... Mister,
I've seen things go from bad to ugly real quick.

heheh


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